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Canaanite Psalms

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    I'll admit that I have not yet read the whole of this thread, but based on the sections which I have read, I'd have to say that I agree with this statement.

    Saying "the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text" seems just as naive and oversimplistic as would the claim that "the Book of Proverbs is an Egyptian text" based on the relationship of the Teaching of Amenemope to Proverbs 22; or the claim that "the Bible is a pre-exilic Jewish text" due to the fact that the Hebrew Scriptures contain pre-exilic Jewish material; or the claim that "The Magnificent Seven is a Japanese film" because it blatantly adapts material from Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.
    Actually, there is archeological and linguistic evidence of Egyptian influence since The Canaanites were under Egyptian hegemony for a long period of time and there is evidence that this influenced the language, theology and culture of the Canaanites. The influence on the Hebrew language, theology and culture is indirect in both Canaanite and Egyptian domination of the region.

    The archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Doug Shaver
      What would that evidence look like? Can you cite a specific hypothetical example of a fact that, if confirmed, would prove the some of the Psalms were of purely Jewish origin?

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      First, most of the books in the Tankh and the New Testament show some editing, additions, compilation from different sources over time like Genesis. Second, this is true of most ancient texts, for example the ancient tale of Gilgamesh, which we have different texts. Many of the texts of the Tanakh show editing, additions, and multiple authors over time, because the known sources from Ugarite and other pre Babylonian, Babylonian sources are a thousand or more years older then any known Hebrew text. Even though polytheism references still remain from these older sources, as Judaism evolved into Monotheism some editing likely reflects this. Part of these editing and changes over time is to include stories. laws, and culture that reflects Judaism sometime after ~600 BCE, when the Heberew language became established as a separate language.
      None of that answers my question. You have summarized some of the evidence for your thesis. You said there was no evidence for the contrary thesis. I asked you what that evidence would look like.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I give up. Maybe someone else can talk sense into you.
        "Do I detect the smell of burning martyr?"

        Comment


        • #49
          Shuny, let's take psalm 132. For the Book of Psalms to be considered Canaanite, David, the Ark, and "a king from the family of David" (verse Psalm 132:17) would also have to be considered Canaanite. Does that make sense?

          How would you classify the Goliath story?
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            "Do I detect the smell of burning martyr?"
            I don't know what that means.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I don't know what that means.
              That's okay.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                The first source quotes good sources, which are good in their own right. http://www.phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html#ixzz3L7yE48uC
                You're a real laugh, Shunya.

                (1) Despite your insistence on other posters referencing 'scholars', you began this thread with a source who is not a scholar in the field (degree in Ceramics); and who cites no recent scholarship at all.

                (2) Here are some quotes from the link you provided above:

                'There is a veritable flood of allusions to Canaanite (Phoenician) literature in Hebrew works composed between the seventh and the third century B.C.: e.g. in Job, Deutero-Isaiah, Proverbs, Ezekiel, Habakkuk, the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Jubilees, and part of Daniel.

                Note what's missing: Psalms.

                Note also:He's talking about "allusions" to Canaanite literature, not wholesale borrowing or copying (your claim).**

                Note further: It's a general history published in 1961, by an economic historian -hardly an expert


                Several of the Psalms were simply adapted from Ugaritic sources; the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature; and the language of the Bible is greatly illuminated by the language of Ugarit.
                Note the very first word, that I have bolded. That means that (in the opinion of your source) not all of the Psalms were "adapted from Ugaritic sources" - again contradicting your claim.



                El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Phoenician hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key.

                Read more: Torah, Ugartic Bible http://www.phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html#ixzz3LHVTLrzd

                Note: again your source is talking about a subset of the Psalms, rather than every Psalm. Again that contradicts your thesis.








                ** Here's where you seize on the chance I've provided, whine about me not directly quoting you, and slither off into a less indefensible version of your original thesis... ...something like what the other posters have been saying all along, but apparently needed your smarts to realise.
                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  I don't know what that means.
                  It means whag is trying to be unkind.
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Actually, there is archeological and linguistic evidence of Egyptian influence since The Canaanites were under Egyptian hegemony for a long period of time and there is evidence that this influenced the language, theology and culture of the Canaanites. The influence on the Hebrew language, theology and culture is indirect in both Canaanite and Egyptian domination of the region.
                    I'm not sure what you thought you were arguing here. I noted a place where the Hebrews were almost certainly influenced by Egyptian culture, and your reply was "Actually, there is... evidence of Egyptian influence." I know that there is evidence of Egyptian influence. I explicitly noted some of the evidence of Egyptian influence. That doesn't make Proverbs an Egyptian book, just as Canaanite influence does not make Psalms a Canaanite book, and Japanese influence does not make The Magnificent Seven a Japanese film.

                    The archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.
                    Even if I were to grant you this point, the fact of the matter is that a significant portion of the book of Psalms was likely composed after 600 BCE, so it remains completely irrelevant to claims that the Psalms were monolithically Canaanite in origin.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                      It means whag is trying to be unkind.
                      I figured as much.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        "Do I detect the smell of burning martyr?"
                        Who recently said this: The evidence I’d present for that is the large contingent of literalist Christians and unsophisticated skeptics who constantly troll each other with meaningless noise, essentially resembling simians flinging feces at each other.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          This is different, and is not comparable to the Psalm being specifically polytheistic in many references, linguistically, stylistically, and the poetic verse of Canaanite literature, culture, and religion. The Israelites show of their supremacy of their God over other Gods comes later.
                          Actually, no. It isn't different. Assimilating names and praises (hymns, psalms, devotions, and other forms of adoration) has been widely known and accepted as being of the same intent. See the assumption of the names El Elyon and Yahweh into the Israelite names for their one God. It was done especially with slaves and conquered foes in mind so they would have a familiar name with which to submit. I wish I could find my notes on this from way back in 2005 when I discussed the topic with a Mormon chap
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            You covered nothing with references, just assertions. There is no evidence that the Hebrews were a distinctive culture prior to ~500 to 600 BCE. .
                            Um, no. The Mesha stele, the Kurkh Monoliths, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, Tel Dan Stele, the Nimrud Slab, the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, Sargon II's Prism A, the Siloam inscription, the Lachish relief, and the Azekah Inscription all pre-date your time frame here and show the Kingdom of Israel existing as an organized and distinct group centuries before.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Um, no. The Mesha stele, the Kurkh Monoliths, the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, Tel Dan Stele, the Nimrud Slab, the Nimrud Tablet K.3751, Sargon II's Prism A, the Siloam inscription, the Lachish relief, and the Azekah Inscription all pre-date your time frame here and show the Kingdom of Israel existing as an organized and distinct group centuries before.
                              Yep. He posted that right after I linked to an article discussing a 10th century Hebrew inscription too.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Yep. He posted that right after I linked to an article discussing a 10th century Hebrew inscription too.
                                Or the Execration texts which mention several biblical cities well before even the 10th century BC
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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