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Canaanite Psalms

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  • #16
    Where is the evidence for any, I mean any other possible source.
    I don't know, maybe they wrote a lot of it themselves. Where is the evidence to the contrary?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Where is the evidence for any, I mean any other possible source. If you read the references, there is more evidence then just some of the psalms. There is style, vocabulary, same poetic verse and style, and origin of the language.

      Still waiting for any other evidence for a possible source of the Book of Psalms???
      OK, so maybe 2 or a few more psalms were adaptions of earlier Canaanite songs (right term?). But why are you seeming so sure that everything in the Book of Psalms must be an adaption of a Canaanite song or the psalms are derived from a mixture of 2 or more sources?
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #18
        Been through all of this before Shuny. Do you have a problem with the Jews assimilating Ugaritic hymns into Jewish cultic worship?
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          This subject has been addressed in detail in a number of threads in the past, but here goes again. The only archeological and internal text evidence we have available is that the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text, possibly edited later when added to Hebrew scripture. We have no other evidence for the origins of the Book of Psalms.

          Source: http://religionthink.wordpress.com/2007/06/25/psalms-29-give-yahweh-o-gods-give-yahweh-praise/



          Psalm 29: Give Yahweh, O Gods, Give Yahweh Praise.

          Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings, ascribe to the Lord glory and strength. Ascribe to the Lord the glory of his name; worship the Lord in holy splendor. The voice of the Lord is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the Lord, over mighty waters. The voice of the Lord is powerful; the voice of the Lord is full of majesty. The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars; the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon. He makes Lebanon skip like a calf, and Sirion like a young wild ox. The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire. The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness; the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh. (Psa 29:1-8NRSV)

          Psalms 29 is most interesting in that the wording is similar to that of Psalms 82. Here the Heavenly Council is addressed to worship Yahweh and proclaim his dominion. So where can we find such writings in the Ancient Near East? Psalms 82 is thought by some to be an adaptation of an old Canaanite hymn to the storm god Baal. From the research done by H.L. Ginsberg, every word in this psalm can be found duplicated in the older Canaanite texts. 1

          A posting by Quartz Hill School of theology we find the following quote on the topic:

          “Psalm 29 provides our final example of the potential of the Ugaritic texts for illuminating the Bible. The Psalmist praises God in powerful language, evocative of a thunderstorm; thunder, described as God’s voice, is referred to seven times. In 1935, H.L. Ginsberg proposed that Psalm 29 was originally a Phoenician hymn which had found its way into the Psalter. In support of his hypothesis, he noted several aspects of the psalm which suggested to him that it had been composed initially in honor of the storm god, Baal; he drew upon the Ugaritic texts to substatiate his hypothesis. Theodor Gaster took the hypothesis further in a study published in the Jewish Quarterly Review in 1947. Drawing on the evidence of the Ugaritic texts, he proposed that the psalm was originally Canaanite; it had been modified for inclusion in Israel’s hymnbook simply by the replacement of the name Baal with the personal name of Israel’s God.

          Today, although debate continues on the details of the hypothesis, almost all scholars agree that Psalm 29’s background is Baal worship, as portrayed in the tablets from Ugarit. The psalm in its present form has a powerful effect; the power of nature and of the storm are not exclusively the domain of Baal; all power, including that of storm and thunder, is the perogative of Israel’s God. yet the Ugaritic background of the psalm reveals its sources. “ 2

          © Copyright Original Source

          Psalm 29 is sung from memory as the Torah scroll is carried back to the aron ha-kodesh (Ark) in the Synagogue.

          I was told that much of the Psalms were compiled in the 5thBCE through about 70CE. Possible Canaanite authorship is not something I've heard discussed before. I do understand that much of what is attributed to David is not correct. What difference does it make where the Psalms come from? Many hymns in the Christian church have other-than-Christian origins.

          I think Kumbaya is "traditional."

          Also, I whispered the original lyrics to Louie-Louie in Richard Berry's ear during a drunken weekend in Jamaica.

          "Scout's Honor." Me gotta go now...

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Been through all of this before Shuny. Do you have a problem with the Jews assimilating Ugaritic hymns into Jewish cultic worship?
            That depends on what you call assimilate, but a considerable amount of the Pentateuch and the Psalms evolved, adopted and edited from Phoenician, Canaanite Ugarite and pre-Babylonian literature. This shows an evolving editing and adding to ancient literature instead of being authored by Hebrews alone.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              This reminds me of the charges that Jesus is just a copy of Mithra, based on cherry picking similarities and ignoring the differences, (Mithra born of a rock, and Mithra's "primeval struggle with Ahura Mazda's first creation, a wild bull, which he subdued and confined to a cave..." and possesses 10,000 eyes and ears and rides in a chariot drawn by white horses" (according to the Avesta) (from p 167 ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GODS isbn 0816029091)

              so I am gonna grab a couple books off the shelf, and I sure don't feel like typing all the text that doesn't match the Bible (its easier to type the similarities, cherry picking is always easier)

              so I just gonna post 4 pages from two different books and everybody can look for similarities to Psalms or Proverbs or the rest of the Bible

              URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon 1966 W.W.Norton & Company, Inc (pages 44/45 and 46/47)

              STORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan (pages 44/45 and 46/47)

              URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H_ Gordon pages 44-45.jpgURARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon pages 46-47.jpgSTORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan pages 44-45.jpgSTORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan Pages 46-47.jpg
              To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

              Comment


              • #22
                dang, too much caffeine
                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Where is the evidence for any, I mean any other possible source.
                  What would that evidence look like? Can you cite a specific hypothetical example of a fact that, if confirmed, would prove the some of the Psalms were of purely Jewish origin?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    What would that evidence look like? Can you cite a specific hypothetical example of a fact that, if confirmed, would prove the some of the Psalms were of purely Jewish origin?
                    First, most of the books in the Tankh and the New Testament show some editing, additions, compilation from different sources over time like Genesis. Second, this is true of most ancient texts, for example the ancient tale of Gilgamesh, which we have different texts. Many of the texts of the Tanakh show editing, additions, and multiple authors over time, because the known sources from Ugarite and other pre Babylonian, Babylonian sources are a thousand or more years older then any known Hebrew text. Even though polytheism references still remain from these older sources, as Judaism evolved into Monotheism some editing likely reflects this. Part of these editing and changes over time is to include stories. laws, and culture that reflects Judaism sometime after ~600 BCE, when the Heberew language became established as a separate language.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                      This reminds me of the charges that Jesus is just a copy of Mithra, based on cherry picking similarities and ignoring the differences, (Mithra born of a rock, and Mithra's "primeval struggle with Ahura Mazda's first creation, a wild bull, which he subdued and confined to a cave..." and possesses 10,000 eyes and ears and rides in a chariot drawn by white horses" (according to the Avesta) (from p 167 ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GODS isbn 0816029091)
                      This particular thread on the principle source of the Psalms, has absolutely nothing to do with the Issue of the Divinity of Jesus being influenced (not copy) by Roman and/or Greek Divinities and beliefs. OFF TOPIC. The influence from Vedic traditions and beliefs is possible, because of archeological and some text and name reference in the Tanakh, like Brahman, and Abraham. But again OFF TOPIC.

                      so I am gonna grab a couple books off the shelf, and I sure don't feel like typing all the text that doesn't match the Bible (its easier to type the similarities, cherry picking is always easier)

                      so I just gonna post 4 pages from two different books and everybody can look for similarities to Psalms or Proverbs or the rest of the Bible

                      URARIT AND MINOAN CRETE Cyrus H. Gordon 1966 W.W.Norton & Company, Inc (pages 44/45 and 46/47)

                      STORIES FROM ANCIENT CANAAN Michael David Coogan (pages 44/45 and 46/47)

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]3023[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3024[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3025[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3026[/ATTACH]
                      First your pictures are not really legible on the post. second, similarities with rest of the Tanakh, and possible references in the NT is no surprise, since as my references indicate that Canaanite/Ugarite, and pre-Babylonian influence can be seen throughout the Tanakh as in Genesis, Hebrew Laws, and other books.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-07-2014, 07:43 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Yep. shunya is overstating his case when he says silly things like "the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text". That's just not the case. Passages in the book of Psalms show possible indications of Canaanite origin and/or influence, but the whole of the book is not a Canaanite text.

                        And its telling that he hasn't actually read books on the subject by scholars like Mark Smith, John Day, Nicholas Wyatt or Richard Hess since all he's able to offer are citations from websites he's clearly Googled with words like "Canaanite" and "Bible".

                        I imagine shunya read some posts by showmeproof at some point, and got the facts turned around in his head. Wish showmeproof was around to help correct him.
                        No response here of any substance, nor any references to support your case. My sources are specific and good, and I did acknowledge that there may be editing and additions. The problem is the earliest references to the Book of Psalms, poetic style, linguistics, descriptions of polytheistic beliefs remain reflecting Canaanite culture and known texts. There are absolutely no known early Hebrew texts. Actually I believe showmeproof would most likely support my case. Taking his name in vain without allowing him to speak for himself, is unethical, and does your case no good. I actually participated in his thread, and still have much of the old Tweb thread in files on my computer.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


                          First your pictures are not really legible on the post. .
                          if you click them they get bigger to read.
                          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The sources are good and you are ignoring them. The proof is in the evidence. The only known sources of the Book of Psalms. So far you have not provided any evidence for alternatives

                            Your first source is not exactly good - no qualifications in the field, (Bachelor's degree in Ceramics) and cites dated scholarship....
                            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              That depends on what you call assimilate, but a considerable amount of the Pentateuch and the Psalms evolved, adopted and edited from Phoenician, Canaanite Ugarite and pre-Babylonian literature. This shows an evolving editing and adding to ancient literature instead of being authored by Hebrews alone.
                              So what? Paul used quotes from pagan poets too. Most of our beloved hymns are from bar tunes. I still don't see the problem with it. But I would not say a "considerable amount" was assimilated as pre-existing literature as much as divine names and praises were assimilated into the cultic worship of the Israelites to show the supremacy of the Israelite's God.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Showmeproof was referenced as not supporting my view. The following directly quotes showmeproof as to who he believes the Hebrews were originally. Note highlighted.

                                Originally posted by showmeproof
                                Polytheism in Israelite history had a long run until under Hezekiah and then later Josiah destroyed the temples, idols and altars of other gods. Josiah's reign is one of monolarity pushing towards monotheism which doesn't fully take root until after the exile.

                                This shouldn't sound too surprising as a cursory glance at the old testament frequently has the Israelites worshiping other deities. It is argued that there are many factors that led to the progression from polytheism to monotheism and they include both domestic and foreign politics. Consider first the foreign politics; Israel was a small nation which had really large neighbors: Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Phoenicia. Israel went through many periods in which it attempted to court treaties with Egypt, Babylon and Assyria which amounted towards vassalage. Israel didn't have a bargaining chip and had to pay high tribute to which ever country dominated during a certain time. This created a domestic xenophobic environment in which Israelites were almost always in zero sum relationships and they realized it and resented it. As a result much contempt stirs towards the aggressor of the day in the writing of the major and minor prophets including the great disparity between the Israelite elite and poor. One exception might be Solomon's reign which prospered under a strong international policy including the marrying of foreign wives whom are derided by the bible as having turned Solomon's heart by influencing him to acknowledge or at the very least tolerate their home countries gods.

                                Furthermore, Archaeology is revealing that the Israelites were merely nomadic Canaanites that lived in the hill country...not a vast exodus of slaves from Egypt that forcibly took Canaan. These nomadic tribes may have included assimilated surviving members of the Shasu whom are mentioned on the Merneptah Stele as being from Yhw (a place which happens to be the hill country). Part of the assimilation included some traditions of the Shasu being transmitted into the nomadic Canaanites and vise versa...thus the exodus.
                                So back to the Canaanite pantheon. This included El the creator god and father of all gods, Baal, Mot, Dagon, Ashtar, Astarte, Lotan, Melqart, Resheph, and others. These of course make appearances in the bible, but are found in Ugaritic Texts preserved in clay. Yahweh is included as well, as a son of El. Yahweh has many encounters with these characters in the bible and is said to rise above them often paralleling feats accomplished by Baal.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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