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Canaanite Psalms

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Description of Iron Age I Judah by Faust.

    Source: http://www.academia.edu/1484587/How_Did_Israel_Become_a_People_The_Genesis_of_Israelite_Identity_Biblical_Archaeology_Review_201_pp._62-69_92-94



    . . . this 200 year period can be identified with the Biblical period of the “settlement and judges,” prior to the formation of the Israelite monarchy in the tenth century B.C.E. In Iron Age I, hundreds of small villages were established in the highlands of ancient Canaan (on both sides of the Jordan River). Among them areKhirbet Raddana, Ai, Giloh, Shiloh, Izbet Sartah, Mt. Ebal and many others. These sites were identified as the settlement of the Israelite tribes in the region. The sites are small—usually less than three acres (1 hectare)—and have a very rudimentary material culture. The pottery repertoire is limited to simple, undecorated vessels—mainly storage jars of the type known as collared-rim jars, along with bowls and cooking pots. Imported wares are absent. These sites are unfortified, and many of the buildings belong to the archetype of what later became known as the four-room house, the typical house of Israelite architecture. No public buildings have been unearthed in these villages.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This describes a minor tribe well. The more distinctive cultural identity came in Iron Age II, but the written language remain Canaanite/proto Hebrew, and no written scripture.
    Note Faust's set-up of the range of scholarly positions in pp 63-65, especially:
    "Then in the 1990s came the so-called Biblical minimalists who questioned even the existenceof an ancient “Israel,” thus making the study of Israelite identity almost illegitimate."

    Faust should not be seen as a minimalist based on his own conclusion (92-93):
    "The “Israel” that is mentioned in the Merneptah Stele is indeed the “Israel”of the Iron Age. And it can be identified archaeologically. The rich archaeological database, and its analysis with appropriate tools, allows us to trace the Israelites and to decipher many of the internal and external processes that characterized the group from the beginning of the Iron Age onward.

    I presume that you will next be bearing witness to Faust's agreement with the identification of David's palace in Jerusalem.

    But before you do, I think you still need to let us know how you are differentiating a minor pastoral tribe from a major pastoral tribe.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • Psalm 23 starts with this verse:
      My Lord is my Shepherd;
      I have everything I need.
      --- NCV

      Why can't I argue that, if there is zero evidence that the Canaanite literature has a verse like that, it is therefore distinctively Hebraic?
      Last edited by Truthseeker; 12-24-2014, 04:36 PM.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        If you acquaint yourself better with some of these theories, you will be better able to make use of their value in your debates. But I hope this knowledge will not only be obtained for its value in winning a debate. It is better to pursue knowledge for its own sake in my opinion.
        You asked in one post what would be a 'major' tribe, as opposed to the Hebrews who were a minor tribe until quite late. The Hittites, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, and pre-Babylonians were advanced to the point they had specific systems of writing and complex cultures.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          You asked in one post what would be a 'major' tribe, as opposed to the Hebrews who were a minor tribe until quite late. The Hittites, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, and pre-Babylonians were advanced to the point they had specific systems of writing and complex cultures.
          Actually, that's not quite what I asked. Your statement was that 'the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites' so I asked you how you differentiated among minor and major pastoral tribes? All of this, of course, also begs the question as to their status during the time of the monarchies and the so-called 'House of David'. I think you also need to explain exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite tribes. I am aware of some differences of grammar and vocabulary, but Hebrew is correctly classified as a Canaanite language, and the system of writing was essentially the same among the various Canaanite tribes, ie, adoption of the Phoenician consonantal alphabet. You find this among the Israelites as well as the other tribes for which we have evidence, eg, the writing of the Moabites.

          Merry Christmas!
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            Psalm 23 starts with this verse:
            My Lord is my Shepherd;
            I have everything I need.
            --- NCV

            Why can't I argue that, if there is zero evidence that the Canaanite literature has a verse like that, it is therefore distinctively Hebraic?
            Maybe yes, maybe no. I did acknowledge that the Canaanite psalms are edited and added to by the Hebrews.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              Actually, that's not quite what I asked. Your statement was that 'the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites' so I asked you how you differentiated among minor and major pastoral tribes? All of this, of course, also begs the question as to their status during the time of the monarchies and the so-called 'House of David'. I think you also need to explain exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite tribes. I am aware of some differences of grammar and vocabulary, but Hebrew is correctly classified as a Canaanite language, and the system of writing was essentially the same among the various Canaanite tribes, ie, adoption of the Phoenician consonantal alphabet. You find this among the Israelites as well as the other tribes for which we have evidence, eg, the writing of the Moabites.
              Merry Christmas!
              Tribes that were predominantly pastoral, without significant Iron Age Industry, trade, or well established writing system and libraries is a minor tribe. There were of course, other minor tribes among the Canaanites, but the Canaanites themselves were a major tribe with a long history of language a clear sign of major trade, and a continuous heavy target for Egyptian military, which resulted in their decline.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Please allow me to point out that a question remains. It is this: Is it reasonable to call the Book of Psalms in the Bible Canaanite? I acknowledge that the Hebrews in the Iron Age used Canaanite or Phoenician alphabet, poetic styles, literature, etc., so there is some reason to affix the attributive "Canaanite," but that seems invidious, as though Shuny wished to zero out Hebraic creativity and orginality.
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  Please allow me to point out that a question remains. It is this: Is it reasonable to call the Book of Psalms in the Bible Canaanite? I acknowledge that the Hebrews in the Iron Age used Canaanite or Phoenician alphabet, poetic styles, literature, etc., so there is some reason to affix the attributive "Canaanite," but that seems invidious, as though Shuny wished to zero out Hebraic creativity and orginality.
                  Hebrew has been seen as a Canaanite language since the middle ages. Move along; nothing to see here.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Tribes that were predominantly pastoral, without significant Iron Age Industry, trade, or well established writing system and libraries is a minor tribe. There were of course, other minor tribes among the Canaanites, but the Canaanites themselves were a major tribe with a long history of language a clear sign of major trade, and a continuous heavy target for Egyptian military, which resulted in their decline.
                    So in fact it seems you have no basis for distinguishing between major and minor pastoral tribes. Do you also have nothing to say about the monarchical periods? I'm also waiting for you to explain exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite tribes.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Its not just some editing and additions.
                      Get a grip shunya. showmeproof is not Jesus Christ, and in no place have I taken his name in vain. Sheesh. I've participated in a number of threads with showmeproof as well. I know for a certainty that he will not agree with your overstatement that the Psalms are a Canaanite text. Certainly he'll agree that there is Canaanite influence, and perhaps even source material in some of its passages, but the book as a whole is not Canaanite.

                      In fact, Adrift, I do think that Psalm 29 is Canaanite in origin. Psalm 29 is surely Judaic, and its point is to proclaim that Yahweh can do everything that Baal can, but its roots stretch back further. Shunya is not making an argument that the Psalm is a wholesale Canaanite Psalm (like Ginsberg, Gaster, F.M. Cross, or Fitzgerald), but rather developed over time from a Canaanite literary source. The evidence for this is quite robust.

                      Relevant discussions John Day's Yahweh and the God's and Goddesses in Canaan pg 96-98
                      KTU 1.101.1-3a, 3b-4 read "Baal sits enthroned, like the sitting of a mountain, Hadad [ ] like the flood, in the midst of his mountain, the God of Zaphon in the [midst of] the mountain of victory...Seven lightnings...Eight storehouses of thunder. The shaft of lightning..."
                      Psalm 29:10 "The Lord sits enthroned over the flood" and we have the seven-fold repetition of the voice of the Lord.
                      Day states that it is safer to assume that the language surrounding Baal was utilized for Yahweh.

                      Also one must include the setting of this Psalm, the divine council, as evidenced by the proclamation "Ascribe to the Lord, Oh sons of gods (bn elim). Richard Clifford, rightly,points out "In Psalm 29, generally recognized as strongly Canaanite, the bene elim, "the sons of gods", or "the gods", ascribe first place to Yahweh in a heavenly assembly." (The Cosmic Mountain in Canaan and the Old Testament pg 46).

                      P.D. Miller in the Religion of Ancient Israel pg 10 speaks of the kingship of Yahweh in Psalm 29 and other places as having its "roots significantly in the mythological pattern discerned in such texts as...the Baal-Anat cycle at Ugarit in which the god fought against hostile and chaotic forces (associated with sea or death), achieved victory, and was rewarded with the building of a house (temple/palace) as an eternal abode."

                      As for Richard Hess he states "There are parallels with expressions and cadences as applied to Baal and Yahweh...Additional themes found earlier in Ugaritic mythology recur in the Psalms and in the poetic literature. For example, Psalm 29 deals with Yahweh's conflict with the sea. Other biblical poems address conflict with the dragon."

                      Also, the structure and content of Psalm 29 is one of the poems directly dealt with by Dennis Pardee's book The Ugaritic Texts and the Origins of the West-Semitic Literary Composition

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        So in fact it seems you have no basis for distinguishing between major and minor pastoral tribes. Do you also have nothing to say about the monarchical periods? I'm also waiting for you to explain exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite tribes.
                        Yes, there is major distinguishing difference, the major tribes have developed the use of language, and libraries of government records, trade, scripture of legends, myths and beliefs in long and sophisticated history of trade. The minor tribes such as the Hebrews developed and evolved their language late.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Yes, there is major distinguishing difference, the major tribes have developed the use of language, and libraries of government records, trade, scripture of legends, myths and beliefs in long and sophisticated history of trade. The minor tribes such as the Hebrews developed and evolved their language late.
                          I think you are still equivocating between pastoral and nonpastoral tribes. If not, please provide an example of a pastoral tribe with a library of governmental records. And, again, if you not going to ignore or deny the monarchical periods, you should probably acknowledge that the Israelites eventually did develop libraries of government records, so the distinction is not really between major and minor pastoral tribes, but earlier and later monarchies. Also, you've ignored my request that you describe exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite pastoral tribes. Did they not all simply adopt the simpler writing system of the Phoenicians (who may have developed it from the Egyptians), which is still the basis of all Western alphabets?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by showmeproof View Post
                            In fact, Adrift, I do think that Psalm 29 is Canaanite in origin. Psalm 29 is surely Judaic, and its point is to proclaim that Yahweh can do everything that Baal can, but its roots stretch back further.
                            Thanks for chiming in showmeproof. Yes, I do realize that you hold that Psalm 29 is Canaanite in origin. I'm not sure how much of this thread you've read, but hopefully I've made that much pretty clear (I think I even mentioned that in the quote you replied to). As you say though, the Psalms (including Psalm 29) is a Judaic text, not a Canaanite text.

                            Shunya is not making an argument that the Psalm is a wholesale Canaanite Psalm
                            Thats exactly what he's been saying, and he's repeated that claim a number of times in this thread and in other threads. He later (sort of) admitted that he was exaggerating to get a reaction. I don't believe him, but whatever.
                            Here are some examples from this thread,

                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The only archeological and internal text evidence we have available is that the Book of Psalms is a Canaanite text, possibly edited later when added to Hebrew scripture.
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            There is no evidence of any compiled Book of Psalms even after ~600 BCE, until latter scrolls were discovered. Nothing in between. The written poetic and linguistic style of the whole book is Canaanite.
                            Last edited by Adrift; 01-01-2015, 01:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              I think you are still equivocating between pastoral and nonpastoral tribes. If not, please provide an example of a pastoral tribe with a library of governmental records. And, again, if you not going to ignore or deny the monarchical periods, you should probably acknowledge that the Israelites eventually did develop libraries of government records, so the distinction is not really between major and minor pastoral tribes, but earlier and later monarchies.
                              Not equivocating. Predominately pastoral tribes are not major tribes like the Canaanites. Where is the evidence for these libraries of government records of the Hebrew tribes before the Exile period that in reality do not exist?

                              Also, you've ignored my request that you describe exactly how the specific systems of writing differed among the various Canaanite pastoral tribes. Did they not all simply adopt the simpler writing system of the Phoenicians (who may have developed it from the Egyptians), which is still the basis of all Western alphabets?
                              I have not ignored your request. The evidence shows the Hebrew writing evolved much later from earlier Canaanite/Phoenician writing. The Canaanite, Greek, possibly alphabet writing in Egypt, and Phoenician writing is the origin of modern alphabets, not Hebrew writing
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-02-2015, 09:44 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Not equivocating. Predominately pastoral tribes are not major tribes like the Canaanites.
                                The term Canaanite can be used in a variety of ways, but they are not a single pastoral tribe. You did not really think that, did you? I asked you how you distinguised between minor pastoral tribes and major pastoral tribes, and you have tried to distinguish instead between pastoral tribes with other types of things, even the Assyrians and the Phoenicians, both of which could be considered world powers at the time. No one disputes that the Israelites were pastoral tribes and were not a world power! But if you want to distinguish between minor and major pastoral tribes, you should be comparing Clementines with Tangerines, not apples to oranges.

                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Where is the evidence for these libraries of government records of the Hebrew tribes before the Exile period that in reality do not exist?
                                None are extant, of course, but we can work with scholarly theories about the process by which the Hebrew scriptures likely came into existence and eventually took their final form. Archaeology is not an exact science. What has been actually found is very sketchy, especially in terms of written texts and libraries. The JEDP documentary hypothesis has many detractors today, myself included, but it still provides one avenue of understanding a variety of differing perspectives that eventually made their way into and can still still to be found in the pentateuch and elements in the books of the prophets and other some other writings. Differing Northern and Southern kingdom perspectives, prophetic perspectives, priestly views from Jerusalem and perhaps elsewhere.

                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                I have not ignored your request. The evidence shows the Hebrew writing evolved much later from earlier Canaanite/Phoenician writing.
                                This is a bit of a false dichotomy. From about the 10th century CE, Hebrew writing at this time is pretty much the same as Canaanite and Phoenician writing. No one disputes that the Israelites and other Canaanite tribes adopted the Phoenician alphabet.

                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                The Canaanite, Greek, possibly alphabet writing in Egypt, and Phoenician writing is the origin of modern alphabets, not Hebrew writing
                                I have never claimed that Hebrew was the origin of modern alphabets--this is a ridiculous strawman. You should realize, however, that the Greeks readily acknowledged their debt to the Phoenicians.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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