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Canaanite Psalms

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  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I am sorry if you are offended, but I am merely trying to be objective about what you do and do not know or understand. This is not an attempt to denigrate you. Some people have studied these languages and some have not, and there are gradations of mastery that should also be taken into account. That is simply part of the objective, factual reality in which we all live. There is no need, and certainly no benefit, to personalize such objective realities.
    I rely on sources who are competent in the Canaanite and Hebrew written languages, not my own expertise.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      No I am not. My references [are?] to the lack of Hebrew scripture is prior to the 6th Century. All the known Hebrew scripture is found from the 6th century onward.
      This point is not in dispute. But there are various theories and hypotheses as to when and how the Hebrew scriptures were composed.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I rely on sources who are competent in the Canaanite and Hebrew written languages, not my own expertise.
        But you have not always understood the sources you are citing. Were you to study these languages, you would no doubt be able to better understand. Likewise, if you were to read Avraham Faust's material directly, rather than relying on Internet summaries, you would better understand his positions and argumentation. A little more basic history of the Ancient Near East would also be helpful.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          But you have not always understood the sources you are citing. Were you to study these languages, you would no doubt be able to better understand. Likewise, if you were to read Avraham Faust's material directly, rather than relying on Internet summaries, you would better understand his positions and argumentation. A little more basic history of the Ancient Near East would also be helpful.
          If you object cite him directly and show my error, which you have failed to do. Instead you inserting opinion for sources. The fact is there are absolutely no, Hebrew scripture prior to the 6th century. If you can prove otherwise, please cite sources.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            If you object cite him directly and show my error, which you have failed to do.
            I have already pointed you to the book, page and footnote numbers. If I get time, I will type out the relevant material.

            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Instead you inserting opinion for sources.
            Yes, I have given you Faust's opinion and I have cited the source. I just have not reproduced the source.

            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The fact is there are absolutely no, Hebrew scripture prior to the 6th century. If you can prove otherwise, please cite sources.
            Once again, this point is not in dispute.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I have already pointed you to the book, page and footnote numbers. If I get time, I will type out the relevant material.

              Yes, I have given you Faust's opinion and I have cited the source. I just have not reproduced the source.

              Once again, this point is not in dispute.
              Your citations were not relevant to the issue of whether pre-exilic Hebrews were capable of composing scripture.

              If you want to contest the source I cited, I would like to see the source, not opinions.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-23-2014, 12:30 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Being a distinct group, or Israel functioned as an 'agriculturally-based/sedintary socioethnic entity in the late thirteenth century B.C.' as Faust describes does not translate to a significant political power. Especially since Faust describes them as 'this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.'

                I am exploring other sources and books and post more.
                Do you think the section you bolded is referring to the 13th century BC?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  This point is not in dispute. But there are various theories and hypotheses as to when and how the Hebrew scriptures were composed.
                  Yes there are various theories, but this is too vague to be of value in a debate.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Your citations were not relevant to the issue of whether pre-exilic Hebrews were capable of composing scripture.

                    If you want to contest the source I cited, I would like to see the source, not opinions.
                    My citation was only intended to be relevant to the issue of Avraham Faust's position on the matter. If you read the his book, or just the page numbers I referred you to, you would know that I am not giving my opinion but his. His book is the source for his opinion, based on his study of the evidence, of course. I also gave you some basic dating for the Babylonian deportations and the Persian conquest and liberation so that you could better understand his opinion on this matter pertained to the devastation of Judah in the 6th century, not the pre-exilic times.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Do you think the section you bolded is referring to the 13th century BC?
                      It refers to the period of Hebrew history prior to the return from exile and those that remained in Palestine during the exile period. The further back you go the more problematic it gets that Hebrews composed any scripture.

                      Still waiting for sources that conflict with what I cited.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Yes there are various theories, but this is too vague to be of value in a debate.
                        If you acquaint yourself better with some of these theories, you will be better able to make use of their value in your debates. But I hope this knowledge will not only be obtained for its value in winning a debate. It is better to pursue knowledge for its own sake in my opinion.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          It refers to the period of Hebrew history prior to the return from exile and those that remained in Palestine during the exile period.
                          So, would you say the section you bolded includes the 13th century BC?

                          Still waiting for sources that conflict with what I cited.
                          I have no problem with the sources you cited.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            I doubt he's being intentionally dishonest. Rather, he does not really grasp some of the matters he is trying to discuss, which is true of many people here, when they start debating historical and archaeological issues regarding languages that they have never studied let alone mastered. It may be the case that he occasionally realizes some of his errors and is not inclined to admit his previous misunderstandings, and that is indeed a form of dishonesty, but it is sometimes very hard to determine when and whether or not he has become aware of his misunderstandings, if he will not admit this openly. This is a complaint I have against many if not most Internet apologetic and anti-apologetic discussions. The goal is to score points against an opponent and not to learn new knowledge. The people I know who have learned and taught Akkadian and Ugaritic are the first to admit how much we do not know but would like to know, what are theories and hypotheses, and what their own levels of proficiency are in the various extant bodies of literature.
                            I'm talking about how he has acted as though this thread represented his position, and is now claiming that it did not. Either he has messed up, and is trying to cover his butt, or he was being dishonest about his position to begin with. I see no other option.

                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Air ball!!!!!!
                            More like "Slam dunk!".

                            It's an exact description of whats happening.

                            Comment


                            • Shuny, would you agree that if evidence were uncovered that helped scholars date the time of the Exodus from Egypt as c1446 BC you would have to concede that the Hebrews were a distinct group well before living in Canaan since then?
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment


                              • Description of Iron Age I Judah by Faust.

                                Source: http://www.academia.edu/1484587/How_Did_Israel_Become_a_People_The_Genesis_of_Israelite_Identity_Biblical_Archaeology_Review_201_pp._62-69_92-94



                                . . . this 200 year period can be identified with the Biblical period of the “settlement and judges,” prior to the formation of the Israelite monarchy in the tenth century B.C.E. In Iron Age I, hundreds of small villages were established in the highlands of ancient Canaan (on both sides of the Jordan River). Among them areKhirbet Raddana, Ai, Giloh, Shiloh, Izbet Sartah, Mt. Ebal and many others. These sites were identified as the settlement of the Israelite tribes in the region. The sites are small—usually less than three acres (1 hectare)—and have a very rudimentary material culture. The pottery repertoire is limited to simple, undecorated vessels—mainly storage jars of the type known as collared-rim jars, along with bowls and cooking pots. Imported wares are absent. These sites are unfortified, and many of the buildings belong to the archetype of what later became known as the four-room house, the typical house of Israelite architecture. No public buildings have been unearthed in these villages.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                This describes a minor tribe well. The more distinctive cultural identity came in Iron Age II, but the written language remain Canaanite/proto Hebrew, and no written scripture.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-24-2014, 09:00 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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