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Canaanite Psalms

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  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Just shows how much of a hypocrite he is when he calls others "Duck, Bob, and Weave".
    That only counts when Christians do it, but when shuny does it well he is special and therefore above the rules and standards he expects the rest of us to follow.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Ketef amulets are 6th century, not from the book of Psalms. One shard of poetry with proto Hebrew/Canaanite writing does not make a distinctive culture.

      Showmeproof is correct in his assessment that up until the exile the Hebrews were genetically and culturally minor Canaanite pastoral tribes
      The point is you are making incorrect statements and avoiding discussion of contrary facts because you are ignorant of the textual data and languages about which you are making pronouncements, all the while pretending to be a model of intellectual debate tactics. Why not just admit your deficienies, appreciate the contributions of those who point out relevant data, and engage in more honest discussion about a topic you are interested in learning more about? The last (and practically only) time I spoke with showmeproof, he was quite honest about the fact that he did not know Ugaritic. I don't either, but I have studied three closely related Northwest Semitic languages. The issues under discussion are much more involved than your simplistic and shifting pronouncements and the meager archeological and textual evidence from this time period allow contrary and complementary hypotheses. If you would but study a couple of the textual artifacts in question, you would be able to begin an intelligent and informed discussion of some of these issues.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        The existence of the Psalms is the main subject of the thread.

        All the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.
        That is absolute nonsense. All of the available archaeology confirms that the Hebrews were distinct enough to have had a monarchy and be named specifically by their enemies as a formidable nation well through the 9th Century BC.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • From this thread http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...n-Age-I-and-II

          Source: Source: Ancient Israel Through a Social Scientific Lens by Yigal Levin - Biblical Archaeological Review




          In conclusion, Faust charges some scholars with "inventing" a continuity of settlement between the end of the Iron Age (i.e., the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah) and the Persian and Hellenistic periods in order to show that the society of Babylonian and Persian-period Judah was capable of producing many texts of the Bible, which they date to this period. In Faust's opinion, this this is simply impossible: Society of Judah was too depleted and poor to have supported such a huge literary project. Bible scholars, he concludes, will have to take the reality that archeologists present into account when developing their theories of how the Bible was produced.

          Much of what Faust writes is controversial, and he, too, has an agenda - especially in The Archeology of Desolation, in which he explicitly takes his opponents to task for using the archaeological data selectively in accordance with their preconceived views. But as long as he admits his own preconceived agenda openly, as he does, this is legit. In both books, Faust takes the archaeological evidence and uses it to present his view of life in Israel and Judah in the periods of the monarchy. Others will undoubtedly argue a different interpretation. As long as this is done in a way that is collegial and based on facts, this is actually the way scholarship advances.

          © Copyright Original Source



          © Copyright Original Source


          I believe Faust presents a firm archeological foundation for what I have proposed in other threads and dialogues. The Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from none Hebrew sources, and edited and added to later with other Hebrew writings to make up the OT and other related writings.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-21-2014, 06:55 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            I believe Faust presents a firm archeological foundation for what I have proposed in other threads and dialogues. The Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from none Hebrew sources, and edited and added to later with other Hebrew writings to make up the OT and other related writings.
            Nothing in the passage which you've cited supports that claim. There's a fairly large difference between "scholars need to take archaeology into account when discussing Biblical development" and the claim that "the Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from [non-Hebrew] sources."

            Does Faust actually make such a claim?
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              Nothing in the passage which you've cited supports that claim. There's a fairly large difference between "scholars need to take archaeology into account when discussing Biblical development" and the claim that "the Pentateuch and other books of the OT like the Psalms were first compiled from [non-Hebrew] sources."

              Does Faust actually make such a claim?
              Faust made the claim that they were not capable of producing any scripture before the exile as many claim, and backed it up with archeology. They were minor pastoral Canaanite tribes, The evidence is clear the scripture was written later based on Canaanite, pre, Babylonian, and Babylonian sources, then edited and added to after the exile, when compared to cuneiform Canaanite and Babylonian libraries. Yes, after the exile the Hebrews compiled added their own history and edited the existing literature and wrote the Pentateuch, Psalms and the added rest of the scripture of the Tanakh.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-21-2014, 08:34 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Faust made the claim that they were not capable of producing any scripture before the exile as many claim, and backed it up with archeology. They were minor pastoral Canaanite tribes, The evidence is clear the scripture was written later based on Canaanite, pre, Babylonian, and Babylonian sources, then edited and added to after the exile, when compared to cuneiform Canaanite and Babylonian libraries. Yes, after the exile the Hebrews compiled added their own history and edited the existing literature and wrote the Pentateuch, Psalms and the added rest of the scripture of the Tanakh.
                Faust claims that Iron Age Judah could not have supported a huge literary project, in the passage you cited. He doesn't claim that "they were not capable of producing any scripture before the exile" in the quoted text, nor does he claim that the Pentateuch, Psalms, and other OT texts were simply edited Canaanite texts.

                So, again, does Faust actually make the claims that you are making?
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The archeological and linguistic evidence is that the Hebrews were in reality minor pastoral tribes of Canaanites with predominately Canaanite language, scripture and culture up until ~600 BCE.
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I also believe like showmeproof that the Hebrews were actually minor pastoral Canaanites up until about 600 BCE by the archeological evidence.
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  All the present archeological evidence indicates that the Hebrews were minor Canaanite pastoral tribes with no distinctive written language nor culture.
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Showmeproof is correct in his assessment that up until the exile the Hebrews were genetically and culturally minor Canaanite pastoral tribes
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  They were minor pastoral Canaanite tribes ...
                  You keep saying that the Hebrews were minor tribes. Is that just more empty rhetoric or do you have something specific in mind that allows you differentiate among minor and major pastoral tribes?
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    You keep saying that the Hebrews were minor tribes. Is that just more empty rhetoric or do you have something specific in mind that allows you differentiate among minor and major pastoral tribes?
                    Easy. Minor tribes were those tribes in the bronze age who mined the bronze, carrying in huge plastic bags to the surface to be distributed to the hungry.

                    We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                      Easy. Minor tribes were those tribes in the bronze age who mined the bronze, carrying in huge plastic bags to the surface to be distributed to the hungry.

                      We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        That is absolute nonsense. All of the available archaeology confirms that the Hebrews were distinct enough to have had a monarchy and be named specifically by their enemies as a formidable nation well through the 9th Century BC.
                        Please cite the evidence.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Please cite the evidence.
                          I have. Twice. And BP cited my evidence once as well.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            Easy. Minor tribes were those tribes in the bronze age who mined the bronze, carrying in huge plastic bags to the surface to be distributed to the hungry.

                            We are still telling lies to be devil's advocate, aren't we?
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              I have. Twice. And BP cited my evidence once as well.
                              The evidence you cited was fragmentary at best and wishful thinking. The research by Faust goes into extensive detail into the actual archeological evidence of pre-exile Judah, and there were no fortresses, temples, Iron Age industry, or other indications of a distinctive culture that could possibly produce the Pentateuch, Psalms and other books of the Tanakh, as well as absolutely no evidence of the existence of scripture before the exile.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                The evidence you cited was fragmentary at best and wishful thinking.
                                If you think that, then there is simply no reasoning with you.

                                The research by Faust goes into extensive detail into the actual archeological evidence of pre-exile Judah, and there were no fortresses, temples, Iron Age industry, or other indications of a distinctive culture that could possibly produce the Pentateuch, Psalms and other books of the Tanakh, as well as absolutely no evidence of the existence of scripture before the exile.
                                from Avraham Faust's Israel's Ethnogenesis, Chapter 16, Menerptah's Israel:


                                Not only does the stele indicate that Israel was a group in the late thirteenth-century BCE Canaan, it also implies that it was of some importance as far as the Egyptians were concerned (e.g. Stager 1985a: 61; Yurco 1991: 61; Bimson 1991: 22-23; Hasel 1994: 54; Dever 1995a: 208; see also Chapter 18) in their mentioning it and taking pride in claiming to have defeated it, along with several major cities. In Hasel's words: 'our study ... has given additional support to the understanding that Israel functioned as an agriculturally-based/sedintary socioethnic entity in the late thirteenth century B.C., one that is significant enough to be included in the military campaign against political powers in Canaan' (1994: 54). More will be said on this much later.

                                [pg. 163]
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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