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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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In Defense of the God's Benevolence towards Job
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Originally posted by Strawman View PostJob can be entirely non-historical and still have been written to fulfill any particular purpose. I believe the purpose was to showcase the benevolence of God, while the majority of skeptics I've come across interpret and use this account to ground the conclusion that God is malevolent. That is the particular claim I am challenging.
I believe the purpose was to explain why bad things happen to good people, an answer to the Problem of Evil. The Jews were God's chosen people. If you had lost a child to disease, you might ask the priests why God let this happen. Modern Christians invoke the Fall. The Jews of that time had this parable.
When it was written, there was "the satan", a role God assigned to one of his angels, rather than Satan, a fallen angel and author of evil. It was the job of the satan to test people's faith and see if they were worthy of heaven. Job shows this in the extreme, with the satan causing terrible things to happen to Job, and yet Job kept his faith in God. We can say these things were very cruel, but that misses the point that this was a parable, and so the calamities were exaggerated for greater effect (so too were rewards).
The problems with Job is firstly that I do not think it makes sense for an all-knowing God to have to test people like this; and secondly that there are several verses that indicate the author believed the world was flat. However, I see no malevolence in it.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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I think I mentioned this a long time ago on TWeb, and I know its probably not a very popular view, but here's my take on the narrative:
In the book of Job we find two sacrifices. These sacrifices are placed at each end of the book, which I don't think is a coincidence. They are placed at these ends to show how Job has changed through the course of this experience. Here's the first sacrifice:
Notice this first sacrifice is Job's regular custom, which I think is interesting wording. To me this sounds like the sacrifice took on, or became, a religious or ritual obligation. Also notice why he made this prayer and sacrifice "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts". While Job's intentions seem noble, I think his motivation is primarily fear based. Fear typically comes when we lack understanding. Job doesn't know his children have actually sinned and cursed God, but he's afraid they may have and he's afraid of the consequences he and his children may reap. Later Job tells us quite plainly that this is his fear:
So fear has come into Job's life, and it is through fear that Satan has permission from God to wreak havoc, and the reason for this is because fear walks us outside of the covenant we have with God which is based on trust. I don't think this is plainly stated in the book of Job, but I believe that's because much of the Old Testament was written in a Hebraic style that often places all blame for both good and bad on God. Its not till later in post-exile literature that we see a shift that more directly associates Satan with evil and tragedy (Philip Harland of York University goes into this in detail in his Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean podcast). I think from the Christian perspective we can say that this is progressive revelation. But anyways, what we learn in the NT is that God does not plant in us a spirit of fear, and we learn about the destructive nature of fear.
And then there's this OT proverb, which, while probably not directly applicable to Job, gives us an indication of the destructive nature of fear, and the salvation of the righteous.
We see a change in Job's character at the end of the book. Job, who now has nothing... nothing to lose, and nothing to be afraid for, finally comes to know who God is. Job finally understands God's greatness, and ultimately, God's ability to take on any circumstance and overcome it. Job's prayer and sacrifice made in ignorance and out of fear at the beginning of the book was unnecessary. It's Job's faithfulness and his new found trust in God which restores him. Job says as much in his closing speech:
And this new found knowledge of God is reflected in the bookend sacrifice. No longer is the sacrifice made under religious duty or fear of the unknown, now it is a sacrifice done in faithfulness, and it is this prayer and sacrifice done in this heart that God accepts:
Among the many things that we can learn from Job's experience is that God is not moved by unthinking religious devotion nor by sacrifices motivated by fear. If God were moved solely by our works, then none of us could ever be called redeemed through Christ Jesus... we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Rather God's word is his standard. When God says he's going to do something we can believe it and have trust in him. And when we align our lives to that standard, and put our trust in him he can transform our lives and perform miracles.
So, anyways, that's my two cents. I'm not sure if its 100% accurate or not, but it makes a lot of sense out of the passage for me.Last edited by Adrift; 12-05-2014, 08:23 AM.
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Originally posted by Strawman View PostHey to you also, Enjolras! Thanks for the welcome :)
Your summation of the account pretty much agreed with my position around 2007 and I carried the logical conclusion that; therefore, God is evil. I note whag's same criticisms elsewhere yet he does not wish to officially step to the logical conclusion. Despite my name (it's a joke since the fallacy runs rampant), tell me if this is a fair description of your statements:
1. God is an uncaring bully
2. God almost dares Satan to attack Job
3. God allows cruelty for no apparent reason
4. God gave Job back some things, but this is pitiful in comparison to what he took
5. It is foolish that you must be God in order to question His goodness
I did a bit of wordplay, but I tried my best to stay true to your post. Read all of those again. What is the logical conclusion? That seems to me to be an evil God. I mean, obviously a good God would commit none of the above (minus 5 and 3). I do not understand why you (and whag) have a good lot of moral negativity regarding the book of Job, but are unwilling to step towards something conclusive.
And that is what I am in search for. Despite whag's claims, there are many many sources which attribute particular degrees of evil to God due to Job's afflictions. Since I used to debate the same logic, I am interested in seeing how my current position will weigh against those similar to my old position.
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Originally posted by Strawman View PostYou were saying the same thing in a different thread. Obviously, many academic skeptical atheists believe many Old Testament accounts; particularly Job, showcases a malevolent God.
Originally posted by Strawman View PostHowever, this says nothing as far as commenting on the author's purpose. That is totally irrelevant. Most atheists would just suggest that the authors are blindly presenting the truth. Either way, what the author believes is irrelevant, if we're talking about how skeptic's interpret the information within each account.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think I mentioned this a long time ago on TWeb, and I know its probably not a very popular view, but here's my take on the narrative:
In the book of Job we find two sacrifices. These sacrifices are placed at each end of the book, which I don't think is a coincidence. They are placed at these ends to show how Job has changed through the course of this experience. Here's the first sacrifice:
Notice this first sacrifice is Job's regular custom, which I think is interesting wording. To me this sounds like the sacrifice took on, or became, a religious or ritual obligation. Also notice why he made this prayer and sacrifice "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts". While Job's intentions seem noble, I think his motivation is primarily fear based. Fear typically comes when we lack understanding. Job doesn't know his children have actually sinned and cursed God, but he's afraid they may have and he's afraid of the consequences he and his children may reap. Later Job tells us quite plainly that this is his fear:
So fear has come into Job's life, and it is through fear that Satan has permission from God to wreak havoc, and the reason for this is because fear walks us outside of the covenant we have with God which is based on trust. I don't think this is plainly stated in the book of Job, but I believe that's because much of the Old Testament was written in a Hebraic style that often places all blame for both good and bad on God. Its not till later in post-exile literature that we see a shift that more directly associates Satan with evil and tragedy (Philip Harland of York University goes into this in detail in his Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean podcast). I think from the Christian perspective we can say that this is progressive revelation. But anyways, what we learn in the NT is that God does not plant in us a spirit of fear, and we learn about the destructive nature of fear.
And then there's this OT proverb, which, while probably not directly applicable to Job, gives us an indication of the destructive nature of fear, and the salvation of the righteous.
We see a change in Job's character at the end of the book. Job, who now has nothing... nothing to lose, and nothing to be afraid for, finally comes to know who God is. Job finally understands God's greatness, and ultimately, God's ability to take on any circumstance and overcome it. Job's prayer and sacrifice made in ignorance and out of fear at the beginning of the book was unnecessary. It's Job's faithfulness and his new found trust in God which restores him. Job says as much in his closing speech:
And this new found knowledge of God is reflected in the bookend sacrifice. No longer is the sacrifice made under religious duty or fear of the unknown, now it is a sacrifice done in faithfulness, and it is this prayer and sacrifice done in this heart that God accepts:
Among the many things that we can learn from Job's experience is that God is not moved by unthinking religious devotion nor by sacrifices motivated by fear. If God were moved solely by our works, then none of us could ever be called redeemed through Christ Jesus... we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Rather God's word is his standard. When God says he's going to do something we can believe it and have trust in him. And when we align our lives to that standard, and put our trust in him he can transform our lives and perform miracles.
So, anyways, that's my two cents. I'm not sure if its 100% accurate or not, but it makes a lot of sense out of the passage for me.
The obvious question (re: basic spiritual applicability, which is what ultimately matters) is: Why does someone who is tender, upright, and perfect, like Job is described, require change? It'd be a strange reaction to not fear the creator who can inflict you with boils and kill your kids just to make this particularly small point. I don't see this explanation as a good one.
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Originally posted by whag View PostNowhere in Job does God indicate that Job's faith is rooted in fear. If Job's faith was shallow, it would confirm that Satan was right about Job having a fear-based/works-based spiritual outlook. In fact, we see just the opposite: God presents Job as perfect and upright.
The obvious question (re: basic spiritual applicability, which is what ultimately matters) is: Why does someone who is tender, upright, and perfect, like Job is described, require change? It'd be a strange reaction to not fear the creator who can inflict you with boils and kill your kids just to make this particularly small point. I don't see this explanation as a good one.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThat's why, for the Christian, its important to discern the text in the light of the revelation that we get outside of the book. I don't expect an unbeliever to come to the same conclusions on the passage as I do. We come from different starting points.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostI might have missed it, but why do you feel the ancient author wrote the narrative? What do you think he was trying to express with this story?
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Originally posted by whag View PostNowhere in Job does God indicate that Job's faith is rooted in fear. If Job's faith was shallow, it would confirm that Satan was right about Job having a fear-based/works-based spiritual outlook. In fact, we see just the opposite: God presents Job as perfect and upright.
The obvious question (re: basic spiritual applicability, which is what ultimately matters) is: Why does someone who is tender, upright, and perfect, like Job is described, require change? It'd be a strange reaction to not fear the creator who can inflict you with boils and kill your kids just to make this particularly small point. I don't see this explanation as a good one.Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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Originally posted by whag View PostFair enough. Are you saying you got a revelation outside of the book?
You did miss it, but it's embedded in two threads so no worries. There is no one author. The BOJ has many authors in the sense that it's an evolved oral tradition, which scribes eventually wrote down. The oral tradition was intended to explain why bad things happen to good people--one of many facts of life that naturally troubled ancient human beings.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYes. I mentioned that in my post. "I don't think this is plainly stated in the book of Job, but I believe that's because much of the Old Testament was written in a Hebraic style that often places all blame for both good and bad on God. Its not till later in post-exile literature that we see a shift that more directly associates Satan with evil and tragedy (Philip Harland of York University goes into this in detail in his Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean podcast). I think from the Christian perspective we can say that this is progressive revelation."
Originally posted by AdriftYeah, multiple (usually two) authors is the view that a number of Old Testament scholars hold (especially Elihu’s speeches). Thank you.
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Originally posted by whag View PostSo it's your belief from that progressive revelation that all natural evil (the only type of evil that's described in Job) is solely caused by Satan?
I think you can also credit transmitters going all the way back to Sumer (and before) with composing the story, expanding the authorship to way more than two.
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Originally posted by whag View PostSo it's your belief from that progressive revelation that all natural evil (the only type of evil that's described in Job) is solely caused by Satan?
I think you can also credit transmitters going all the way back to Sumer (and before) with composing the story, expanding the authorship to way more than two.
They are not related, suffering is universal, and unrelated cultures can give accounts of suffering.
...even the Buddhism acknowledges in the 4 Noble Truths , life is suffering, dukkha, all existance is unsatisfactory and full of suffering.To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D
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Originally posted by jordanriver View Posti think thats twice now, you've hinted some sort of connection with the Sumerian sufferer's petition story and the Scriptures' Job.
They are not related, suffering is universal, and unrelated cultures can give accounts of suffering.
...even the Buddhism acknowledges in the 4 Noble Truths , life is suffering, dukkha, all existance is unsatisfactory and full of suffering.
Are you saying the story originated in the Jewish culture?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think that because Satan is revealed as the god of this world, natural evil can certainly be caused by him, but I'm not certain how you derived anything like that from my post which was only meant to address the theological nature of the narrative from the Christian perspective.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhich books do you recommend on the connection between Sumerian mythology and the book of Job?
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