Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

About Psalm 137

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I can't believe Pixie actually started a thread on this and exposed his gross ignorance and incompetence to an even broader audience than a post buried in an 18 page thread would have.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jesse View Post
      Correct. You used this passage in a morality thread. That is why I commented. You might as well of posted musical lyrics with harsh themes. I bet you find those morally wrong too.
      Sure, but no one around here is saying they should unthinkingly follow musical lyrics with harsh themes.

      On the other hand, seer was indicating that he knows what is right and wrong only from God via the Bible. And when the Bible says bashing kids on rocks is okay sometimes, I think that that is a problem.
      I explained what it meant. But you still pretend it wasn't. I can't help you there. I still have yet to see where God is blessing anyone in that passage. The only thing I can think of here, is that you think the psalmist and God are the same person. Nothing else makes any sense.
      I was thinking that many Christians think the Bible is the word of God. Therefore, what is written in the Bible is what God wants to be written there.

      Now if your position is that the Bible is just people's opinions of what they think God has done and said, that I agree.
      And this proves what? That you still can't read the passage correctly?
      No, it is okay. I get it now. The Bible is just written by people. It is not God's word, it was not written by God, it was not inspired by God, or at least some of it was not. God was not able to or unwilling to copntrol it so that it only contains what is true.
      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by The Pixie View Post

        On the other hand, seer was indicating that he knows what is right and wrong only from God via the Bible. And when the Bible says bashing kids on rocks is okay sometimes, I think that that is a problem.
        I don't think that's really the trust of his argument. The thrust of his argument seems to be: we all recognize that some things are morally good, and some things are morally bad. Both atheists and theists seem to intuitively realize this. There seems to be something objective about morality. Even when people verbally deny the reality of objective morality, they still act as though they accept objective morality. Why do these objective morals seem to actually exist in the real world? Why is good good, and bad bad? When Seer put this question to you, the best you could offer was something like "because it just is". Seer thinks that theists actually have an answer, and that answer lies in an objective moral law giver who's very nature is morally good.

        This whole side derail that you got into about the Psalms passage, and your constant complaint that Seer thinks that killing is good, or whatever, is just a distraction from Seer's main point, which is that, theists have an answer for why morality exists, and atheists don't.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
          I was thinking that many Christians think the Bible is the word of God. Therefore, what is written in the Bible is what God wants to be written there.
          When people around here throw around the phrase "fundy atheist" it kinda irks me because its usually just a mindless insult. But the reason the term was coined is because, in their zeal to stick it to the person they're arguing with, some skeptics will quote the Bible in a fashion that only the most narrow-minded King James Onlyist type of fundamentalist might even consider, but even then will probably reject. Most Christians read their Bibles with a little bit more consideration and thoughtfulness than you're giving them credit for. So, you can wipe your brow, and stop being so absurd.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            When people around here throw around the phrase "fundy atheist" it kinda irks me because its usually just a mindless insult. But the reason the term was coined is because, in their zeal to stick it to the person they're arguing with, some skeptics will quote the Bible in a fashion that only the most narrow-minded King James Onlyist type of fundamentalist might even consider, but even then will probably reject. Most Christians read their Bibles with a little bit more consideration and thoughtfulness than you're giving them credit for. So, you can wipe your brow, and stop being so absurd.
            That!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hmm, you all keep saying how stupid it is to find that verse problematic. I consider myself a reasonable person and none of you have come close to convincing me. Are you saying the verse is prophetic hyperbole? If so, how do you know?

              Comment


              • #22
                I don't think it's "stupid" to find this verse problematic --- I am not in any way "comforted" by it, but it was, in fact, a record of the reaction of Jews in exile, crying out to God.

                Source: NewBibleCommentary



                C. Imprecating Zion’s destroyers (137:7–9)

                The last part of this psalm must be understood in the light of the great mourning of the Jews in exile. As an imprecation (cf. comments under “Theology of the Psalms” in the Introduction), it is a prayer for God to exact vengeance on their captors and those who aided them.
                137:7. This is a plea for God to remember … the Edomites (cf. the psalmist’s remembering, v. 6) who had rejoiced while the city of Jerusalem was being destroyed and encouraged the destroyers (cf. Ezek. 25:12; Joel 3:19). So the psalmist wanted God to bring retribution on Edom.
                137:8–9. The psalmist addressed his curse to Babylon directly. The Babylonians should note that the Lord would destroy them measure for measure, that is, their little ones would be dashed against the rocks (cf. Isa. 13:16) for the Babylonians apparently had done this to the Jerusalemites. This is perhaps the most painful imprecation in the Book of Psalms. To the exiled psalmist, those who had ravaged the Holy Land deserved no better. Great sadness and bitterness filled the hearts of the Israelites who were in captivity (cf. Lam. 1–2).


                Ross, A. P. (1985). Psalms. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 1, p. 890). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

                © Copyright Original Source



                It is not anything like God telling us to go kill babies.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  Hmm, you all keep saying how stupid it is to find that verse problematic. I consider myself a reasonable person and none of you have come close to convincing me. Are you saying the verse is prophetic hyperbole? If so, how do you know?
                  What do you mean by problematic? It's an emotional expression. Like a certain NWA song whose name I can't quote here. AFAIK Dr. Dre never actually caused a cop bloodbath. You can see this much by reading the whole thing instead of one isolated verse:

                  By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
                  when we remembered Zion.
                  There on the poplars
                  we hung our harps,
                  for there our captors asked us for songs,
                  our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
                  they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
                  How can we sing the songs of the Lord
                  while in a foreign land?
                  If I forget you, Jerusalem,
                  may my right hand forget its skill.
                  May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
                  if I do not remember you,
                  if I do not consider Jerusalem
                  my highest joy.
                  Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
                  on the day Jerusalem fell.
                  “Tear it down,” they cried,
                  “tear it down to its foundations!”
                  Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
                  happy is the one who repays you
                  according to what you have done to us.
                  Happy is the one who seizes your infants
                  and dashes them against the rocks.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Herein lies the problem:

                    Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                    I am just an ignorant atheist, but to me the Bible is saying that God blesses people who smash kids against rocks.
                    It is not God "speaking" telling us to dash kids against rocks, NOR is it God "blessing" us for doing that.

                    You have to read the whole chapter in context, which includes who is speaking, what is the background, to whom is the speaker speaking, the culture, etc...

                    You really can't get "God bless(ing) people who smash kids against rocks" out of that text.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Herein lies the problem:



                      It is not God "speaking" telling us to dash kids against rocks, NOR is it God "blessing" us for doing that.

                      You have to read the whole chapter in context, which includes who is speaking, what is the background, to whom is the speaker speaking, the culture, etc...

                      You really can't get "God bless(ing) people who smash kids against rocks" out of that text.
                      Ok, but you can get the 'people of God' in extremis saying how nice it would be to kill their babies. They're angry, I get it. They have an excuse, I get that. But if you believe that God had a guiding hand in selecting and inspiring the texts to be included in the verse, why choose this psalm?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                        Ok, but you can get the 'people of God' in extremis saying how nice it would be to kill their babies. They're angry, I get it. They have an excuse, I get that. But if you believe that God had a guiding hand in selecting and inspiring the texts to be included in the verse, why choose this psalm?
                        Why include the account of David having an affair and killing the husband of his sweetie? Quite a dastardly deed. The Bible often records the history of things that happened, whether they were good or not.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I found this on the subject over at Tektonics.

                          Source: Tektonics Apologetics

                          Barbaric? As noted above, this is partly answered by noting the frankness and openness of the ancient mind. Actually we do think such things often today (lest it be said, "Well, we're more advanced than those barbarians!"), if only fleetingly, and seldom repeat them in polite company.

                          At any rate, such are simply typical expressions of Oriental imprecation. Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 92ff) gives more modern examples: "May God burn the bones of your fathers"; "May your children be orphaned and your wife widowed", and so on. Such wishes were expressed in clan fights and quarrels in Rihbany's native Syria; and yet: "...the Syrians are not so cruel and heartless as such imprecations, especially when cast in cold type, would lead one to believe." Such petitions actually serve a purpose as a "safety-valve" through which the Oriental vents his wrath.

                          Further: "As a rule the Orientals quarrel much, but fight little. By the time the two antagonists have cursed and reviled each other so profusely they cool off, and thus graver consequences are averted." The Anglo-Saxon social order being more complex cannot resolve things so simply; yet the Oriental shudders at the Anglo- Saxon ready resort to fisticuffs.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Given how often you hear phrases like "I'm going to kill him!", from someone who is really upset, even today, I don't see how this is much different. Although, I can see, like the quoted material, how heartless such a verse may seem, especially in print only, and not how it likely* would have originally been understood.

                          *I think that the argument for the peoples of the OT and NT had a very different society, and therefore would have understood these things differently to be a very strong one.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            I found this on the subject over at Tektonics.

                            Source: Tektonics Apologetics

                            Barbaric? As noted above, this is partly answered by noting the frankness and openness of the ancient mind. Actually we do think such things often today (lest it be said, "Well, we're more advanced than those barbarians!"), if only fleetingly, and seldom repeat them in polite company.

                            At any rate, such are simply typical expressions of Oriental imprecation. Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 92ff) gives more modern examples: "May God burn the bones of your fathers"; "May your children be orphaned and your wife widowed", and so on. Such wishes were expressed in clan fights and quarrels in Rihbany's native Syria; and yet: "...the Syrians are not so cruel and heartless as such imprecations, especially when cast in cold type, would lead one to believe." Such petitions actually serve a purpose as a "safety-valve" through which the Oriental vents his wrath.

                            Further: "As a rule the Orientals quarrel much, but fight little. By the time the two antagonists have cursed and reviled each other so profusely they cool off, and thus graver consequences are averted." The Anglo-Saxon social order being more complex cannot resolve things so simply; yet the Oriental shudders at the Anglo- Saxon ready resort to fisticuffs.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Given how often you hear phrases like "I'm going to kill him!", from someone who is really upset, even today, I don't see how this is much different. Although, I can see, like the quoted material, how heartless such a verse may seem, especially in print only, and not how it likely* would have originally been understood.

                            *I think that the argument for the peoples of the OT and NT had a very different society, and therefore would have understood these things differently to be a very strong one.
                            Mmm. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either God was preparing the clearest text He could for all time, or this the encultured writing of a people which needs to be understood in the way it was 'originally' intended.

                            The bit about David's sin, I actually get. The Bible records the heroes of God often had clay feet. Paradoxically, I think that's a positive message. But this writing is a Psalm, presumably a song used in worship, included in the Bible, ostensibly by God. Does the inclusion of this psalm indicate that God is ok with 'God is on our side' justifications for cruel words against an enemy or possibly even cruel action?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                              Sure, but no one around here is saying they should unthinkingly follow musical lyrics with harsh themes.

                              On the other hand, seer was indicating that he knows what is right and wrong only from God via the Bible. And when the Bible says bashing kids on rocks is okay sometimes, I think that that is a problem.

                              I was thinking that many Christians think the Bible is the word of God. Therefore, what is written in the Bible is what God wants to be written there.

                              Now if your position is that the Bible is just people's opinions of what they think God has done and said, that I agree.

                              No, it is okay. I get it now. The Bible is just written by people. It is not God's word, it was not written by God, it was not inspired by God, or at least some of it was not. God was not able to or unwilling to copntrol it so that it only contains what is true.
                              I see. So you really didn't care for an explanation of the passage. You just wanted a screed thread. I figured as much. It's a pretty typical Atheist tactic of your stripe. You of course knew what the passage was in context but you feigned ignorance in order to get on your soap box. Thanks for showing everyone here how much of a non-serious person you are. It helps others to know what they are getting into if they think they can have any type of meaningful conversation with you.
                              Last edited by Jesse; 11-20-2014, 06:41 PM.
                              "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                What do you mean by problematic? It's an emotional expression. Like a certain NWA song whose name I can't quote here. AFAIK Dr. Dre never actually caused a cop bloodbath. You can see this much by reading the whole thing instead of one isolated verse:
                                This is all that needed to be said.
                                "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                186 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,517 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X