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Animals Doing What Animals Do...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
    So your argument is that you only find the Rape of Nanjing to be morally wrong because of your religion. Without your religion, you would find it morally acceptable? And I suppose conversely the atrocities committed by the Hebrews, which were sanctioned by God, you would say were morally acceptable. Is that right?

    You seem to be arguing then that what is right is whatever God says is right, and what is wrong is whatever God say is wrong. Is that right?

    Therefore, it would follow that you think people are not capable of telling right from wrong. Is that right?

    My view is the opposite. I believe that humans are able to tell right from wrong. This sets them apart from fish, chimps, etc. This means that when we do morally wrong we are culpable in a way that fish and chimps are not. Again, why do we feel the need to try and change natural human behavior. Where does that desire spring from?

    I think murder is wrong because of something intrinsic in the act, and not depending on whether a god has decided it is.

    I think slavery is wrong because of something intrinsic in the act. I think that this is something mankind's collective morality has developed over centuries (perhaps helped by improved technology). I do not think slavery is right because the Christian god says it. And nor do Christians nowadays.
    That is the question Pixie, why, in your worldview, is murder intrinsically wrong? Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another? Why not? Are we not also animals doing what animals do?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Yes pancreasman, there are many gifted atheist philosophers. I recently watched a number of talks by Dr. Sam Harris concerning his new moral philosophy.
      Sam Harris' "new" moral philosophy appears to be a resurrection of the much criticised and long discarded Utilitarianism. I, too, am sure there are many gifted atheist philosophers; but I, too, have read and listened to Sam Harris, and although I can agree with a portion of what Harris says, I judge him primarily a polemical rhetorician, not a competent philosopher.

      Jerry Coyne keeps a keen eye out for atheist philosophers who can accept that religion and science -- especially evolutionary science -- can happily co-exist, in order to lambast them from the point of view of an anti-religious bigot. (Coyne, too, is not a competent philosopher.) You will find a selection of his hated "accommodationists" and "accommodatheists", who are generally well-known and presumably gifted atheist philosophers, linked to in Coyne's blog posts here.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
        So your argument is that you only find the Rape of Nanjing to be morally wrong because of your religion. Without your religion, you would find it morally acceptable? And I suppose conversely the atrocities committed by the Hebrews, which were sanctioned by God, you would say were morally acceptable. Is that right?

        You seem to be arguing then that what is right is whatever God says is right, and what is wrong is whatever God say is wrong. Is that right?

        Therefore, it would follow that you think people are not capable of telling right from wrong. Is that right?

        My view is the opposite. I believe that humans are able to tell right from wrong. This sets them apart from fish, chimps, etc. This means that when we do morally wrong we are culpable in a way that fish and chimps are not.

        I think murder is wrong because of something intrinsic in the act, and not depending on whether a god has decided it is.

        I think slavery is wrong because of something intrinsic in the act. I think that this is something mankind's collective morality has developed over centuries (perhaps helped by improved technology). I do not think slavery is right because the Christian god says it. And nor do Christians nowadays.
        That is the question Pixie, why, in your worldview, is murder intrinsically wrong? Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another? Why not? Are we not also animals doing what animals do? Why do we trying so hard to change our natural behavior?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by David Hayward View Post
          Sam Harris' "new" moral philosophy appears to be a resurrection of the much criticised and long discarded Utilitarianism. I, too, am sure there are many gifted atheist philosophers; but I, too, have read and listened to Sam Harris, and although I can agree with a portion of what Harris says, I judge him primarily a polemical rhetorician, not a competent philosopher.
          This is all true, but Harris' view is pretty well thought out (with some obvious exceptions). But that is beside my main point. Why do atheists spend so much time and effort inventing ethical systems that attempt to change or modify human behavior. Why do they have such a problem with human nature as it is? From where does this spark of dissatisfaction spring?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            That is the question Pixie, why, in your worldview, is murder intrinsically wrong? Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another? Why not? Are we not also animals doing what animals do? Why do we trying so hard to change our natural behavior?
            Murder, (wrongful death), is wrong in all cultures regardless of whether they believe in God, because to preserve social order in the family and community to raise children to adulthood and survive, wrongful death is not an option.

            Your not clear here simply saying 'Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another?'Well in chimp societies 'wrongful death' is considered wrong and punishable by death. Chimps have a social structure and other things like the theft of food, is punished.

            Yes, humans are basically animals and act like animals and have social structures, morals and ethics like higher primates and other intelligent mammals.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Murder, (wrongful death), is wrong in all cultures regardless of whether they believe in God, because to preserve social order in the family and community to raise children to adulthood and survive, wrongful death is not an option.

              Your not clear here simply saying 'Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another?'Well in chimp societies 'wrongful death' is considered wrong and punishable by death. Chimps have a social structure and other things like the theft of food, is punished.

              Yes, humans are basically animals and act like animals and have social structures, morals and ethics like higher primates and other intelligent mammals.
              Moreover, seer's assumption that the predominant activity of all species is genocide indicates his complete misapprehension of the wild.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Murder, (wrongful death), is wrong in all cultures regardless of whether they believe in God, because to preserve social order in the family and community to raise children to adulthood and survive, wrongful death is not an option.
                Really? Was it intrinsically wrong for the Hutu to slaughter the Tutsi and take their property and lands? That whole thing was quite beneficial for the Hutu tribe.

                Your not clear here simply saying 'Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another?'Well in chimp societies 'wrongful death' is considered wrong and punishable by death. Chimps have a social structure and other things like the theft of food, is punished.
                Really, so a while back I linked an article from Jane Goodall's research where one group of chimpanzee (northern chimps) came down and killed all the males in the southern group - then took their territory and females. Is that morally wrong Shuny?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  Moreover, seer's assumption that the predominant activity of all species is genocide indicates his complete misapprehension of the wild.

                  Are you really this stupid? That has not what I have been arguing at all.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is the question Pixie, why, in your worldview, is murder intrinsically wrong? Is it just as inherently wrong when one chimp kills another? Why not? Are we not also animals doing what animals do? Why do we trying so hard to change our natural behavior?
                    As I said last time:

                    My view is the opposite. I believe that humans are able to tell right from wrong. This sets them apart from fish, chimps, etc. This means that when we do morally wrong we are culpable in a way that fish and chimps are not.

                    Perhaps you disagree, but you might at least acknowledge that I said it. Otherwise I will assume you did not actually bother to read my post.
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                      As I said last time:

                      My view is the opposite. I believe that humans are able to tell right from wrong. This sets them apart from fish, chimps, etc. This means that when we do morally wrong we are culpable in a way that fish and chimps are not.

                      Perhaps you disagree, but you might at least acknowledge that I said it. Otherwise I will assume you did not actually bother to read my post.
                      No Pixie, you spoke about murder being intrinsically wrong. How is anything intrinsically wrong in your worldview? For men to know the difference between right and wrong there actually needs to be a standard for right and wrong - objectively.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Are you really this stupid? That has not what I have been arguing at all.
                        Yes, you have. The title implies that all species are inclined to commit Nankings, but animals "do" much more than predate, and only two--chimps and human beings--plan war raids. What you really mean is "Chimps Doing What Chimps Do." The predation activities of cats is a real stretch. Read some books about the wild.

                        Your threads are obviously fueled by lame Kirk Cameron-ish talking points, and that's why you're not taken seriously.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No Pixie, you spoke about murder being intrinsically wrong. How is anything intrinsically wrong in your worldview? For men to know the difference between right and wrong there actually needs to be a standard for right and wrong - objectively.
                          Murder is intrinsically wrong unless God orders the genocide. We get it.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            Yes, you have. The title implies that all species are inclined to commit Nankings, but animals "do" much more than predate, and only two--chimps and human beings--plan war raids. What you really mean is "Chimps Doing What Chimps Do." The predation activities of cats is a real stretch. Read some books about the wild.
                            See you did miss the whole point. It does matter if only chimps and humans slaughter on this level. These actions are sill natural, natural to us (and the chimps). The point Homer is the disconnect in atheistic reasoning - when monkeys do it it is merely nature working itself out, no big deal. When humans do it is a horrible, immoral thing! Nonsense.

                            Your threads are obviously fueled by lame Kirk Cameron-ish talking points, and that's why you're not taken seriously.
                            I never read or listened to Cameron - but if he agrees with me then he is correct.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              Murder is intrinsically wrong unless God orders the genocide. We get it.
                              I'm glad you finally do.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I'm glad you finally do.
                                He was being sarcastic, seer. Holy heck. His point was to illustrate a moral abomination that might follow from your line of reasoning.

                                And really, come on. Your "argument" is nothing more than "duh, uh, er, well, nothing's really intrinsically right and wrong under an atheistic worldview!" And you might actually be right, but that DOESN'T disprove atheism, NOR does it prove that theism is true. You're increasingly convincing me that a significant part of your personal theistic worldview is based on a desperate clinging to what intuitively feels less scary or depressing, not on where you actually think the evidence lies. It really doesn't have to be this way, seer. I know plenty of Christians who are intellectually brave, honest, daring, willing to confront possibilities even if they fear what might lie on the other side, admitting when they don't know something, and so on. You don't have to cling to something merely out of familiarity and fear and personal indignation.
                                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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