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  • Originally posted by ChaosRain View Post
    And you're OK with being a slave? Why? Does thinking for yourself sound that unpalatable to you?
    Well thinking for myself brought me to the point of receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior. And now He owns me - purchased me, redeemed me with His blood. Listen Chaos I was agnostic for my first 37 years - simply, you have nothing to offer but hopelessness and death.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well thinking for myself brought me to the point of receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior. And now He owns me - purchased me, redeemed me with His blood. Listen Chaos I was agnostic for my first 37 years - simply, you have nothing to offer but hopelessness and death.
      And the ability to tell right from wrong. Let us not forget that. You apparently gave that up when you became a Christian.
      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        And the Communists disagree with you - now who is correct?
        You think whether murder is morally wrong depends on what communists think?

        Sorry, I am struggling to get you here. Murder is wrong. It does not matter if communists disagree. It does not matter if the Bible says people who smash kids against rocks will be blessed. It is wrong.
        First all life was harsh back then.
        So morality was different?

        What are you trying to say here exactly, seer? Are you saying that morality changes depending on the culture? Think carefully before replying.
        Second, slavery in the west was based on kidnapping - "man-stealing" in Scripture is forbidden.
        So the Hebrews were allowed to buy and sell slaves, but not to go capture them themselves.

        That would be like in the American colonies then. Slave owners in North America did not capture slaves themselves, they bought them from other nations. Very Biblical.
        Second, for the most part (except as plunder during war) there is no evidence that men were forced into slavery. It was not uncommon for men to become slaves to better their lot in life - it was better than starving.
        So men were not forced into slavery... except when they were. Yeah, you might want to work on your reasoning skills there, seer.

        What I do not get is why you seem to be arguing that the Bible does not promote slavery. Accept that it does! Your morality comes from God, via the Bible, and if the Bible says slavery is good, then slavery must be good. It is kind of like you know slavery is wrong despite what the Bible says.
        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
          You think whether murder is morally wrong depends on what communists think?

          Sorry, I am struggling to get you here. Murder is wrong. It does not matter if communists disagree. It does not matter if the Bible says people who smash kids against rocks will be blessed. It is wrong.
          No Pixie, whether murder is wrong is merely a matter of opinion. And your opinion is no more objectively valid or correct than the Communists. Look at it this way - if you had grown up under Mao and were in the "Party" you, most likely, would have condoned the large scale murder of dissents. You may have even participated.


          morality was different?

          What are you trying to say here exactly, seer? Are you saying that morality changes depending on the culture? Think carefully before replying.
          No, I'm say that as a Christian I get my moral marching orders from the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general. That Christ, more and any other Old Testament prophet or leader, more clearly revealed the mind and heart of God.

          Let me put it this way. Somethings in the Old Testament seem to contradict the teachings of Christ. Now some of that stuff could have been ordered by God - if it was I have to trust that God knew what He was doing. If God exists there could be no higher standard for ethics or goodness, even if we find these things harsh. In the mean time, as a Christian, I'm explicitly called to follow the teachings and example of Christ.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Of course. God is the very source of goodness, His immutable nature is good, He could only, by that nature, order that which is good. Kelp do you believe that God is subordinate to an external moral law or rule?
            No, I believe that God is a God of life who created us to live and flourish with Him forever and so He commands things to that end. If you want to call that "subordination," go ahead. At that point you're applying distinctions so fine as to be meaningless. You might as well say that God is "subordinate" to the laws of logic because He can't make a square circle.

            On the other hand, your idea of God being the "very source of goodness" seems to be, "God has seemingly arbitrary whims, commanding preservation of life one moment and then killing the next and we'll just agree to call the current flavor 'good." "Good and evil," don't exist for you. There's just, "what God wants at the moment," and "what God doesn't want at the moment."

            That makes Christianity completely unstable as a way to live one's life. I'd rather join the Church of Satan, at least they have a moral theory.
            O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

            A neat video of dead languages!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              No Pixie, whether murder is wrong is merely a matter of opinion.
              We will have to agree to disagree on that. In my world, murder is always wrong.
              And your opinion is no more objectively valid or correct than the Communists. Look at it this way - if you had grown up under Mao and were in the "Party" you, most likely, would have condoned the large scale murder of dissents. You may have even participated.
              And do you think that my actions would then be morally right? I think they would not. It does not matter if you are committing murder for an idealogy or a religion, it is still wrong. Even if you think it is right. It is still wrong.
              No, I'm say that as a Christian I get my moral marching orders from the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general. That Christ, more and any other Old Testament prophet or leader, more clearly revealed the mind and heart of God.
              Right. So you have given all your money to the poor, as Jesus told his followers.

              Oh, no, wait. You do not follow that rule either.

              Basically, you treat the Bible as a moral smorgasbord, and just pick and choose the bits you want. You will keep the prohibitions against murder and stealing of the OT, oh and against homosexuality. But you want to eat pork and lobster. And obviously you want your car and your house, so you will twist Jesus' words about property to mean something else.

              Then you will start a thread about how meaningless atheist morality is. Can you see the irony?
              Let me put it this way. Somethings in the Old Testament seem to contradict the teachings of Christ. Now some of that stuff could have been ordered by God - if it was I have to trust that God knew what He was doing.
              Yes you do, because you apparently gave up the ability to judge right from wrong when you became a Christian.
              If God exists there could be no higher standard for ethics or goodness, even if we find these things harsh. In the mean time, as a Christian, I'm explicitly called to follow the teachings and example of Christ.
              This would be Christ who said his followers should give up all their property and who lived a life of poverty? You follow his teachings and example?
              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                No, I believe that God is a God of life who created us to live and flourish with Him forever and so He commands things to that end. If you want to call that "subordination," go ahead. At that point you're applying distinctions so fine as to be meaningless. You might as well say that God is "subordinate" to the laws of logic because He can't make a square circle.

                On the other hand, your idea of God being the "very source of goodness" seems to be, "God has seemingly arbitrary whims, commanding preservation of life one moment and then killing the next and we'll just agree to call the current flavor 'good." "Good and evil," don't exist for you. There's just, "what God wants at the moment," and "what God doesn't want at the moment."

                That makes Christianity completely unstable as a way to live one's life. I'd rather join the Church of Satan, at least they have a moral theory.
                What are you talking about. How do you go from God being the very source of goodness to arbitrary commands? It is the very opposite. God's immutable moral nature prevents any such arbitrariness.
                Last edited by seer; 11-20-2014, 10:09 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  And do you think that my actions would then be morally right? I think they would not. It does not matter if you are committing murder for an idealogy or a religion, it is still wrong. Even if you think it is right. It is still wrong.
                  No, either you missed the point or you are purposely avoiding the point. Again, why is murder wrong - because YOU say so? What do you offer apart from your subjective opinion. I have asked you time and time again Pixie to provide a rational justification apart from mere assertion and emotionalism. Bottom line - you live in a meaningless universe, on a meaningless planet and we are meaningless creatures - with no more inherent worth than a common housefly. But your moral choices are somehow meaningful?
                  Last edited by seer; 11-20-2014, 10:13 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    What are you talking about. How do you go from God being the very source of goodness to arbitrary commands? It is the very opposite. God's immutable moral nature prevents any such arbitrariness.
                    In theory, yeah. But if "kill this guy because I said so" and "don't kill these guys because I said so" are both equally good, then you really don't have anything at all in the real world. God being the source of goodness is a meaningless category unless it can tell us something about what goodness actually is. I believe the New Testament gives us a lot of information about what goodness means, but you put an asterisk saying, "unless God tells you to do the opposite" next to almost all of those statements.
                    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                    A neat video of dead languages!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                      In theory, yeah. But if "kill this guy because I said so" and "don't kill these guys because I said so" are both equally good, then you really don't have anything at all in the real world. God being the source of goodness is a meaningless category unless it can tell us something about what goodness actually is. I believe the New Testament gives us a lot of information about what goodness means, but you put an asterisk saying, "unless God tells you to do the opposite" next to almost all of those statements.
                      I have no idea where you are coming from Kelp. Does not God have the right to judge or even destroy sinners?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Well thinking for myself brought me to the point of receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior. And now He owns me - purchased me, redeemed me with His blood. Listen Chaos I was agnostic for my first 37 years - simply, you have nothing to offer but hopelessness and death.
                        I'm sorry that you cannot accept reality, and would rather waste your final years praying desperately for an afterlife that you cannot possibly prove is real. When you left agnosticism (I'll assume agnostic atheism, since agnosticism needs a subject in order to be valid), you also left reality. You decided that, rather than accept the world for how it is, you'd rather cling to a fantasy to make everything seem nice and cosy. You left behind your freedom in exchange for mental slavery; your sense of right and wrong for being told what is right and wrong by desert nomads of the BCEs.

                        I can't say that I blame you. I'm sure it must be the best feeling in the world - to live life truly believing that there's something better waiting for you when you die. I wish I could share the same beliefs as you do; truly, I do. I wish I could believe in an afterlife, and a loving creator god. I wish it were real. But, I am cursed with the mentality of a realist; forced to accept what is most clear to me. I lack the capabilities for faith that you possess, and for that, I envy you greatly.

                        But, hopelessness and death? Nay. Hope comes and goes for all of us. As an anti-theist, I have hope that one day, the people of the world will stop letting religion decide who they love or hate or hug or kill or heal or crush; when people can work together to solve greater issues in the world. Hope is one thing that we both share. Death seems to be one of the defining differences between us, however; you find it more palatable to believe that when you die, you'll float up to a wonderful, blissful heaven, where you will spend eternity. I, however, am incapable of allowing for such a luxury. Once again, I envy your faith, but cannot profess that it is possible for me to share it with you.
                        “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I have no idea where you are coming from Kelp. Does not God have the right to judge or even destroy sinners?
                          Sure He does. That's what He did to the Egyptians in the Exodus.

                          I don't see the continuity between that and ordering the Israelites to slaughter the Amalekites- or ordering the people of Jonestown to commit mass suicide, which are essentially the same thing in the world of your morality (No, I'm not accusing you of believing in Jim Jones. I'm saying that if you knew God was telling you to force poison Flavor-Aid on your family, you would have to).
                          Last edited by Kelp(p); 11-20-2014, 11:19 AM.
                          O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                          A neat video of dead languages!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                            I'm saying that if you knew God was telling you to force poison Flavor-Aid on your family, you would have to).
                            One of the most powerful dangers of accepting Biblical morality up and over one's own reasoning capabilities.
                            “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Really? Why is harm the standard? Says who?
                              You asked for a non-arbitrary standard. One has been provided.

                              If you don't think harming others is immoral, there is probably nothing else anyone could say that would persuade you.

                              Why does there need to be some authority that says harming others is wrong? Would that make it somehow really wrong in your opinion? Why would that be? I imagine you might say harming others is wrong because God says so or because it goes against God's nature or something like that. I could further ask you "Why does God saying so make something right or wrong?" Or "why does God's nature determine morality?" At some point you will get to the place where you can provide no further justification. One can always ask why such and such is a standard no matter what standard is chosen, whether theistic or otherwise. At some point one must stop.

                              It seems to me that adding God into the mix only further complicates the issue, rather than helping. For then you must also try to determine God's will or nature, something about which even Christians disagree significantly. Christians believing in the same God and bible disagree about many significant moral issues today: abortion, capital punishment, birth-control, stem-cell research, homosexuality, Sabbath observance, alcohol use, etc. This is not to mention the disagreements with other theistic systems such as Islam, where some adherents think god wants them to kill everyone who disagrees with them. Does having a god who somehow provides the basis for morality really help resolve these issues?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ChaosRain View Post
                                I'll assume agnostic atheism, since agnosticism needs a subject in order to be valid
                                The use of qualifiers is not something you'll find in Thomas Huxley's writings (the coiner of the word "agnostic").

                                Source: Life and Letters, 1, T.H. Huxley



                                When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; Christian or a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last, I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain "gnosis,"–had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion. [...]. So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic." It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant; and I took the earliest opportunity of parading it at our Society, to show that I, too, had a tail, like the other foxes. To my great satisfaction the term took.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Source: The Agnostic Annual, T.H. Huxley



                                Some twenty years ago, or thereabouts, I invented the word "Agnostic" to denote people who, like myself, confess themselves to be hopelessly ignorant concerning a variety of matters, about which metaphysicians and theologians, both orthodox and heterodox, dogmatise with the utmost confidence; and it has been a source of some amusement to me to watch the gradual acceptance of the term and its correlate, "Agnosticism" (I think the Spectator first adopted and popularised both), until now Agnostics are assuming the position of a recognised sect, and Agnosticism is honoured by especial obloquy on the part of the orthodox. Thus it will be seen that I have a sort of patent right in "Agnostic" (it is my trade mark); and I am entitled to say that I can state authentically what was originally meant by Agnosticism. What other people may understand by it, by this time, I do not know. If a General Council of the Church Agnostic were held, very likely I should be condemned as a heretic. But I speak only for myself in endeavoring to answer these questions.

                                1. Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.
                                2. Consequently Agnosticism puts aside not only the greater part of popular theology, but also the greater part of anti-theology. On the whole, the "bosh" of heterodoxy is more offensive to me than that of orthodoxy, because heterodoxy professes to be guided by reason and science, and orthodoxy does not.


                                I have no doubt that scientific criticism will prove destructive to the forms of supernaturalism which enter into the constitution of existing religions. On trial of any so-called miracle the verdict of science is "Not proven." But true Agnosticism will not forget that existence, motion, and law-abiding operation in nature are more stupendous miracles than any recounted by the mythologies, and that there may be things, not only in the heavens and earth, but beyond the intelligible universe, which "are not dreamt of in our philosophy." The theological "gnosis" would have us believe that the world is a conjuror's house; the anti-theological "gnosis" talks as if it were a "dirt-pie" made by the two blind children, Law and Force. Agnosticism simply says that we know nothing of what may be beyond phenomena.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Last edited by Adrift; 11-20-2014, 11:22 AM.

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