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Animals Doing What Animals Do...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Let not derail this thread and try to keep on subject, which is, why do we find some perfectly natural acts so morally objectionable? But don't find those same acts morally objectionable when other animals (like chimpanzees) do the same thing.

    No you can't. Present a non-arbitrary standard by which you decide these things.
    We don't assign moral culpability to a 1 year old human if he tears up your favorite book, whereas we would fault a 20 year old adult who does the same thing. What's the difference? Infants are not capable of moral reasoning, whereas adults are. What is true of human infants is true of non-human animals: they are simply incapable of moral reflection and reasoning. That is why we don't charge animals with immorality, but we do humans.

    A non-arbitrary standard for morality is to ask whether an action harms another person or not. If an action harms another person, it is wrong. If it doesn't cause harm, it is not wrong. Applying this standard in each and every case may require hard work and consideration, but this meets the criterion that you have been asking for.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
      Sorry, I forgot you cannot work out morality for yourself, I should have said.

      Those atheists who believe murder is necessarily wrong are correct.
      Of course!

      As evolved social animals we are genetically predisposed towards behaviour which enhances social cohesion and this, as a general rule, does not include murder. The moral values attributed to a deity were merely a reflection of the existing instinctive values necessary for the survival of our species. They long pre-date the invention of deities upon whom, in due course, we bestowed similar values - as one would expect of a God made in the image of Man.

      We find them immoral because (a) they are immoral and (b) some of us are capable of realising they are immoral.
      Seer seems incapable of understanding, despite umpteen attempts to explain it, that “perfectly natural acts” (his words) include the evolved altruistic, cooperative behaviour common to all social creatures, including us. It's an instinctive survival thing.

      Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
      We don't assign moral culpability to a 1 year old human if he tears up your favorite book, whereas we would fault a 20 year old adult who does the same thing. What's the difference? Infants are not capable of moral reasoning, whereas adults are. What is true of human infants is true of non-human animals: they are simply incapable of moral reflection and reasoning. That is why we don't charge animals with immorality, but we do humans.

      A non-arbitrary standard for morality is to ask whether an action harms another person or not. If an action harms another person, it is wrong. If it doesn't cause harm, it is not wrong. Applying this standard in each and every case may require hard work and consideration, but this meets the criterion that you have been asking for.
      Excellent first post and welcome to TWeb.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
        That is the Christian way, not the atheist way.

        Psalm 137: 9 How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
        Against the rock.


        Also, don't you mean the Jewish way? There were no Christians back then.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Of course!

          As evolved social animals we are genetically predisposed towards behaviour which enhances social cohesion and this, as a general rule, does not include murder.
          Exterminating outgroups also enhances social cohesion and improves the well-being of your in-group.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Exterminating outgroups also enhances social cohesion and improves the well-being of your in-group.
            Indeed it does. This has been the standard tribal practice for millennia. We saw it among the tribal Israelites (e.g. the genocide of the Amorites) and we see it in ISIS today. But in a shrinking world tribalism has no place. In effect the planet is becoming just one, worldwide "tribe". Not for much longer can we have in-groups and an out-groups fighting each other to the death if we are to survive as a species.

            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post


            Also, don't you mean the Jewish way? There were no Christians back then.
            Same God though!
            Last edited by Tassman; 11-20-2014, 01:41 AM.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
              Looks to me that the Atheist way is to be totally ignorant of ANE languages. I figure if we give them a few more years to catch up we will see less of these posts? Doubtful.
              Too much to hope you might explain why, in your opinion, I am wrong. Hey, you find out that I am not.
              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Also, don't you mean the Jewish way? There were no Christians back then.
                Presumably the Jewish way as well.

                Remember, seer gets his morality from God, via the Bible. The Bible says "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock." Thus in seer's Christian morality (in specific circumstances) it is morally right to bash babies against rocks.

                See this is the difference between the Christian morality seer advocates and the atheist morality I advocate. I believe murder is wrong, and the needless and deliberate killing of innocents is necessarily murder. The problem I have with my morality is I have difficulty explaining to seer why murder is necessarily wrong.

                On the other hand, seer thinks murder is only wrong when God says it is. The problem he has with morality is that he does not understand why murder is necessarily wrong, so when Go says it is good to bash babies against rocks (or when seer believes God says that) seer will be there bashing babies against rocks.
                Last edited by The Pixie; 11-20-2014, 01:54 AM.
                My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  Too much to hope you might explain why, in your opinion, I am wrong. Hey, you find out that I am not.
                  You're so ignorant of ancient languages that you need me to hold your hand and lead you to it? Is this another one of those Atheist ways? If you had any knowledge of the subject you would know why you are wrong. But alas, ignorance is bliss.
                  "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                    You're so ignorant of ancient languages that you need me to hold your hand and lead you to it? Is this another one of those Atheist ways? If you had any knowledge of the subject you would know why you are wrong. But alas, ignorance is bliss.
                    Translation:

                    I think I am probably right, and if I am right, then my reasoning might convince a lot of people who happen to be reading this thread. However, I know that my position is dubious to say the least, so I will keep my reasoning to myself, rather than exposing it to public scrutiny, which I know will go badly. Instead, I will use bluster to make it seem as if I am more knowledgeable than I am, and insult to make my opponent seem less knowledgeable.
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                      Translation:

                      I think I am probably right, and if I am right, then my reasoning might convince a lot of people who happen to be reading this thread. However, I know that my position is dubious to say the least, so I will keep my reasoning to myself, rather than exposing it to public scrutiny, which I know will go badly. Instead, I will use bluster to make it seem as if I am more knowledgeable than I am, and insult to make my opponent seem less knowledgeable.
                      Heh. Odd that you think it took effort for me to show your complete lack of knowledgeable.
                      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                        Heh. Odd that you think it took effort for me to show your complete lack of knowledgeable.
                        Good news. I have started a new thread where you can show us all just how knowledgeable you are, and I am not.
                        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...bout-Psalm-137
                        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                          Maybe in theory but not in practice when you believe that God could at any moment order you to kill your dog and it would then be wrong not to do so. You might as well be a relativist.
                          Of course. God is the very source of goodness, His immutable nature is good, He could only, by that nature, order that which is good. Kelp do you believe that God is subordinate to an external moral law or rule?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Enjolras View Post
                            A non-arbitrary standard for morality is to ask whether an action harms another person or not. If an action harms another person, it is wrong. If it doesn't cause harm, it is not wrong. Applying this standard in each and every case may require hard work and consideration, but this meets the criterion that you have been asking for.
                            Really? Why is harm the standard? Says who?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ChaosRain View Post
                              Perhaps it is; I have no way of knowing that. However, from what I have seen, it does not appear to be clouded.
                              So your reason is not clouded because you don't think your reason is clouded? Also, can you prove that scientifically - or do you take it by faith? Sorry, I couldn't resist...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                                No, because murder is wrong.
                                And the Communists disagree with you - now who is correct?


                                What was practiced in the West was pretty similar to how the Hebrews treated gentile slaves. It was based on race (though not on colour), it was harsh, it was for life. And it was legalised by rules from God. And yet you say it was wrong.
                                First all life was harsh back then. Second, slavery in the west was based on kidnapping - "man-stealing" in Scripture is forbidden. Second, for the most part (except as plunder during war) there is no evidence that men were forced into slavery. It was not uncommon for men to become slaves to better their lot in life - it was better than starving.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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