Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Animals Doing What Animals Do...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Animals Doing What Animals Do...

    Over the years there has been no end to atheistic philosophers developing ethical systems. Some being very good and involved. This is interesting - if they didn't already believe there was something deeply wrong or out of sorts why even attempt to develop such systems? I find it strange, that they find human behavior strange or in need of reform. They don't find it equally upsetting when a lion kills and eats a gazelle, or who one group of chimpanzees slaughters all the males in another group and take their females and territory. We say that is just nature working herself out. But how, for instance, is the Rape of Nanking any different in kind? The second problem is that it is not difficult to invent an ethical system - the problem has always been getting men to follow them. I mean my goodness, if all men followed the simple, easily understood, golden rule, from their heart, we would have heaven on earth tomorrow. But men don't, or only to a limited degree. These atheistic ethical systems are running headlong into human nature - which brings us back to the question - why do they find these very natural behaviors so objectionable? And why don't they apply this same moral outrage to the rest of nature? In a godless universe are we not too just animals doing what animals do?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Over the years there has been no end to atheistic philosophers developing ethical systems. Some being very good and involved. This is interesting - if they didn't already believe there was something deeply wrong or out of sorts why even attempt to develop such systems? I find it strange, that they find human behavior strange or in need of reform. They don't find it equally upsetting when a lion kills and eats a gazelle, or who one group of chimpanzees slaughters all the males in another group and take their females and territory. We say that is just nature working herself out. But how, for instance, is the Rape of Nanking any different in kind? The second problem is that it is not difficult to invent an ethical system - the problem has always been getting men to follow them. I mean my goodness, if all men followed the simple, easily understood, golden rule, from their heart, we would have heaven on earth tomorrow. But men don't, or only to a limited degree. These atheistic ethical systems are running headlong into human nature - which brings us back to the question - why do they find these very natural behaviors so objectionable? And why don't they apply this same moral outrage to the rest of nature? In a godless universe are we not too just animals doing what animals do?

    Yet another admission that you'd lose your mind if you found out God didn't exist. Admitting that you'd do whatever you please without an eternal governor isn't helping your case.

    ETA: Would you be willing to concede our actual animal nature complicates the discussion a tad? We are really animals, which is probably why have have such a profound connection with them. Consider dogs, for example.
    Last edited by whag; 11-16-2014, 01:43 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Yet another admission that you'd lose your mind if you found out God didn't exist. Admitting that you'd do whatever you please without an eternal governor isn't helping your case.
      Well whag, it's all relative anyway - right? Remember the line from the old song: "a yardstick for lunatics one point of view..."


      ETA: Would you be willing to concede our actual animal nature complicates the discussion a tad? We are really animals, which is probably why have have such a profound connection with them. Consider dogs, for example.
      Christians don't believe that men are merely animals, but hybrids - spiritual/moral and physical...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        Yet another admission that you'd lose your mind if you found out God didn't exist. Admitting that you'd do whatever you please without an eternal governor isn't helping your case.
        I wouldn't lose my mind if God didn't exist. I might go to a hooker once in a while because I'm really bad with women, but that's about it
        O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

        A neat video of dead languages!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
          I wouldn't lose my mind if God didn't exist. I might go to a hooker once in a while because I'm really bad with women, but that's about it
          That's sweet. Seer, on the other hand, would go Nanking. He sees a correlation between animal predation and mass murder.

          Comment


          • #6
            Some animals are social animals. Social population groups with behaviours we would characterise as 'ethical' are more likely to be successful. Add to that the human facility for reason and abstraction and an ethical philosophy based on principle becomes possible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
              Some animals are social animals. Social population groups with behaviours we would characterise as 'ethical' are more likely to be successful. Add to that the human facility for reason and abstraction and an ethical philosophy based on principle becomes possible.
              My only issue with that is a sort of "Problem of the Free-rider."

              It seems like in a town full of many moral people and one thief, in would be in the best interests of the thief to publicly encourage morality so as to make a competitionless "gangsta's paradise," for himself in which he can fleece the sheep as much as he wants under cover of darkness.
              O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

              A neat video of dead languages!

              Comment


              • #8
                You've changed your faith tag from Agnostic to Agnostic Theist to Christian (Unorthodox) in the span of about a week, Kelp. Has to be record time for fastest conversions ever.
                Last edited by fm93; 11-17-2014, 02:22 AM.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  Some animals are social animals. Social population groups with behaviours we would characterise as 'ethical' are more likely to be successful.
                  It is true that societies that have been willing and able to colonise/annex/slaughter others have done better.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    You've changed your faith tag from Agnostic to Agnostic Theist to Christian (Unorthodox) in the span of about a week, Kelp. Has to be record time for fastest conversions ever.
                    Yeah. Agnostic Theist was just an attempt at clarification of my position in coming here, though.

                    I'd been a Christian all my life prior and only in the past couple of years had I been having doubts so serious that I didn't consider myself part of the faith anymore. Looks like those have ebbed for now at least.
                    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                    A neat video of dead languages!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      It is true that societies that have been willing and able to colonise/annex/slaughter others have done better.
                      It is also true that populations that practice altruism and sharing do better. Behaviour is more complex than 'either/or'.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                        It is also true that populations that practice altruism and sharing do better. Behaviour is more complex than 'either/or'.
                        Indeed. So wouldn't you agree the evidence suggests that altruism within the population and conquering other populations is the best way to go?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          Indeed. So wouldn't you agree the evidence suggests that altruism within the population and conquering other populations is the best way to go?
                          Not necessarily. Like I say I think it's complex. I also think that in today's global society that conquering tends to not go so well.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            Not necessarily. Like I say I think it's complex. I also think that in today's global society that conquering tends to not go so well.
                            Allow me to clarify: your stance is that behaviors that make population groups more successful are by definition "ethical"?

                            Some animals are social animals. Social population groups with behaviours we would characterise as 'ethical' are more likely to be successful. Add to that the human facility for reason and abstraction and an ethical philosophy based on principle becomes possible.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              That's sweet. Seer, on the other hand, would go Nanking. He sees a correlation between animal predation and mass murder.
                              What a silly argument whag - what if you or I were raised in 1920s Japan - we would probably both would done the same thing in Nanking. And mass mass murder is animal predation, because as you keep making clear - we are all merely animals.
                              Last edited by seer; 11-17-2014, 09:08 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              117 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                              13 responses
                              63 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Gondwanaland  
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,602 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,242 responses
                              54,965 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X