The Problem of Natural Evil

[NormATive]

I have already pointed this out to you but you ignored it, as you have in the past:

"You keep wanting to define modern Jews as the majority of which are like your fundamentalists, or whacked out on Kabalism."

This is false.

OMG! I'm so sorry. That was supposed to be directed to JohnnyP. Sorry, dude. For some reason, I keep confusing you with some of his posts. I think its because you both have unique views on Judaism.

NORM

[robrecht]

OMG! I'm so sorry. That was supposed to be directed to JohnnyP. Sorry, dude. For some reason, I keep confusing you with some of his posts. I think its because you both have unique views on Judaism.

NORM

What do you find unique about my view of Judaism??

[whag]

I believe God told Ezekiel that Job (along with Noah and Daniel) was an actual person (Ezekiel 14:12-20)
and the New Testament contributor James indicated he also believe Job was a real person James 5:10-11


and studying World History indicates the events are not that far-fetched, albeit, the account of the encounter with God requires faith.

Exhibit A.

[NormATive]

What do you find unique about my view of Judaism??

Well, let's take your signature, for one. The I Corinthians verse in Greek says that we see now through a glass darkly....and your Hebrew reference is a fragment from Isaiah 45 which is about how G-d is unique among other pagan gods. The fragment you quote is: "Truly you are a G-d who has been hiding himself, the G-d and Savior of Israel."

But, put side by side, you seem to be saying that perhaps Christians have missed something? That they've misinterpreted Jesus' mission and meaning?

It's just a unique perspective.

NORM

[robrecht]

Well, let's take your signature, for one. The I Corinthians verse in Greek says that we see now through a glass darkly....and your Hebrew reference is a fragment from Isaiah 45 which is about how G-d is unique among other pagan gods. The fragment you quote is: "Truly you are a G-d who has been hiding himself, the G-d and Savior of Israel."

But, put side by side, you seem to be saying that perhaps Christians have missed something? That they've misinterpreted Jesus' mission and meaning?

It's just a unique perspective.

NORM

And how is this a unique view of Judaism?

[NormATive]

And how is this a unique view of Judaism?

I didn't really want to have to go here, but since you asked:

It's unique for this time period. Your posts remind me of some of the writings of Martin Luther shortly after the Protestant Reformation he helped spark in 1517.

Consider this written in 1523:

If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery... If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either - Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew," Trans. Walter I. Brandt, in Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1962), pp. 200-201, 229.

When he couldn't get the Jewish community to go along with him, he then condemned them as unrepentant in his famous treatise called The Jews & Their Lies published in 1543. Here is what he recommend the Christian community do in handling "the problem of the Jew":

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them...etc., and etc...

I just hope you continue in the Martin Luther of the first era, and not repeat the latter.

NORM

[robrecht]

I didn't really want to have to go here, but since you asked:

It's unique for this time period. Your posts remind me of some of the writings of Martin Luther shortly after the Protestant Reformation he helped spark in 1517.

Consider this written in 1523:

When he couldn't get the Jewish community to go along with him, he then condemned them as unrepentant in his famous treatise called The Jews & Their Lies published in 1543. Here is what he recommend the Christian community do in handling "the problem of the Jew":

I just hope you continue in the Martin Luther of the first era, and not repeat the latter.

NORM

I do not think the attitude of the early Luther is all that unique. Unfortunately, neither has that of the later Luther been unique. That a single person could hold both views in the course of his public career points to a rather unstable personality. This can also be seen in his early hope that the Pope would institute swift reforms followed very soon after by his identification of the Pope with the Antichrist and his apocalyptic expectations of the end of the world. I agree with much of Luther's early theology and refotms, but could never tolerate his reading of Paul, and I would never try to found my views, of the Jews or anything else, upon those of Luther. Were I to look to a monk or reformer as someone with similar views to my own, I would rather choose Francis of Assissi. It may be interesting to you that there is a school of thought in Franciscan studies that Francis' family was secretly Jewish, ie, Christian in name only. This would help explain the violent reaction on the part of his father to Francis' conversion but it also helps to explain some of his spiritual practices. This view has been popularized by a former communist mayor of Assis, Arnaldo Fortini, and later defended by his daughter Gemma in her doctoral dissertation.