Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Neccesary existence, why?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Neccesary existence, why?

    I suppose this is the other side of the coin from all our recent talk of "something rather than nothing."

    The standard apologetic conception is that God is the only "thing" (I know it is not strictly proper to say that God counts a thing) that exists necessarily. It is not possible that God not exist.

    Everything else in the universe only exists because God confers existence upon it.

    I'll assume that the idea of something existing necessarily is a coherent one since at least it seems pretty conceivable. But why can't we just take the property of necessary existence and say that it applies to the universe as a whole (or alternately, to the quantum foam or the original singularity or the multiverse or whatever we want to talk about cosmologically)?

    I know I've read William Lane Craig's argument about this somewhere, but I lost that book.
    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

    A neat video of dead languages!

  • #2
    Atheists quite commonly have no problem with a self existent universe. They quite commonly have serious problems with a self existent God who creates.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #3
      Indeed. But why can't there just be a self-existent universe without a God needed to create it? If God didn't need a First Cause, then why does the universe?
      O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

      A neat video of dead languages!

      Comment


      • #4
        One or the other must be true. My real objection is that atheists often reject God out of hand and insist that the universe (or whatever) has always been. If the universe is actually eternal and self existent, that is where the question you asked in the other thread comes in.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
          I suppose this is the other side of the coin from all our recent talk of "something rather than nothing."

          The standard apologetic conception is that God is the only "thing" (I know it is not strictly proper to say that God counts a thing) that exists necessarily. It is not possible that God not exist.

          Everything else in the universe only exists because God confers existence upon it.

          I'll assume that the idea of something existing necessarily is a coherent one since at least it seems pretty conceivable. But why can't we just take the property of necessary existence and say that it applies to the universe as a whole (or alternately, to the quantum foam or the original singularity or the multiverse or whatever we want to talk about cosmologically)?

          I know I've read William Lane Craig's argument about this somewhere, but I lost that book.
          Yeah, Craig deals with this online as well here:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-u...f-the-universe

          Source: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-ultimate-question-of-origins-god-and-the-beginning-of-the-universe

          Philosophers analyzing the concept of necessary existence agree that the essential properties of any necessarily existing entity include its being eternal, uncaused, incorruptible, and indestructible14--for otherwise it would be capable of non-existence, which is self-contradictory. Thus, if the universe began to exist, its lacks at least one of the essential properties of necessary existence-eternality. Therefore, the reason for its existence cannot be immanent, but must in some mysterious way be ultra-mundane, or transcendent. Otherwise, one must say that the universe simply sprang into being uncaused out of absolutely nothing, which seems absurd. Sir Arthur Eddington, contemplating the beginning of the universe, opined that the expansion of the universe was so preposterous and incredible that "I feel almost an indignation that anyone should believe in it--except myself."15 He finally felt forced to conclude, "The beginning seems to present insuperable difficulties unless we agree to look on it as frankly supernatural."16


          14 For this analysis, see John Hick, "God as Necessary Being," Journal of Philosophy 57 (1960): 733-34.

          15 Arthur Eddington, The Expanding Universe (New York: Macmillan, 1933), p. 124.

          16 Ibid., p. 178.

          © Copyright Original Source

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            One or the other must be true. My real objection is that atheists often reject God out of hand and insist that the universe (or whatever) has always been. If the universe is actually eternal and self existent, that is where the question you asked in the other thread comes in.
            That raises an interesting question. If there really was a Big Bang, then why not just say that the singularity existed eternally? And since the singularity is just everything that would be the universe crammed into an unimaginably tiny point, that means the universe is eternal under a Big Bang anyway.
            O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

            A neat video of dead languages!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Yeah, Craig deals with this online as well here:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-u...f-the-universe

              Source: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-ultimate-question-of-origins-god-and-the-beginning-of-the-universe

              Philosophers analyzing the concept of necessary existence agree that the essential properties of any necessarily existing entity include its being eternal, uncaused, incorruptible, and indestructible14--for otherwise it would be capable of non-existence, which is self-contradictory. Thus, if the universe began to exist, its lacks at least one of the essential properties of necessary existence-eternality. Therefore, the reason for its existence cannot be immanent, but must in some mysterious way be ultra-mundane, or transcendent. Otherwise, one must say that the universe simply sprang into being uncaused out of absolutely nothing, which seems absurd. Sir Arthur Eddington, contemplating the beginning of the universe, opined that the expansion of the universe was so preposterous and incredible that "I feel almost an indignation that anyone should believe in it--except myself."15 He finally felt forced to conclude, "The beginning seems to present insuperable difficulties unless we agree to look on it as frankly supernatural."16


              14 For this analysis, see John Hick, "God as Necessary Being," Journal of Philosophy 57 (1960): 733-34.

              15 Arthur Eddington, The Expanding Universe (New York: Macmillan, 1933), p. 124.

              16 Ibid., p. 178.

              © Copyright Original Source

              But why does chagnability, complexity, etc. imply that something might actually cease to exist? I have a feeling the words, "you cannot traverse an infinite amount of time" are coming...
              O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

              A neat video of dead languages!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                That raises an interesting question. If there really was a Big Bang, then why not just say that the singularity existed eternally? And since the singularity is just everything that would be the universe crammed into an unimaginably tiny point, that means the universe is eternal under a Big Bang anyway.
                Why was there an eternal singularity. Not an answer just another question. Two choices. You have no other options that I know of.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  Why was there an eternal singularity. Not an answer just another question. Two choices. You have no other options that I know of.
                  Ockham's Razor? In the face of a God who refuses to reveal Himself unambiguously, and in a universe where it seems possible that there is no God and no absolutely unambiguous evidence for there being one- the simplest conclusion is that there is no God?
                  O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                  A neat video of dead languages!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                    Ockham's Razor? In the face of a God who refuses to reveal Himself unambiguously, and in a universe where it seems possible that there is no God and no absolutely unambiguous evidence for there being one- the simplest conclusion is that there is no God?
                    Why do you expect to get any better revelation than what convinces me? You are not even close to being able to understand what God is doing in creation (nor am I) and without that your statement is nonsense. I have yet to see more than a wishful thinking that it is possible that there is no God. In fact the one thing I am able to agree with Shuny on is that science does not have any handle at all on an answer to the question of God's existence.

                    In an aside, it can not really be said that God "exists." Existence is part of the universe. God is beyond existence. But that is a word game.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                      Ockham's Razor? In the face of a God who refuses to reveal Himself unambiguously, and in a universe where it seems possible that there is no God and no absolutely unambiguous evidence for there being one- the simplest conclusion is that there is no God?
                      If you considering only the evidence that some things exist, it could be the simplest conclusion that there is no God (which is not, of course, to say that it is more likely). However, this is not the only evidence relevant to the question of whether God exists.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Occam's Razor applies to the existing world.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          Occam's Razor applies to the existing world.
                          ...as opposed to the non-existent world.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            If you considering only the evidence that some things exist, it could be the simplest conclusion that there is no God (which is not, of course, to say that it is more likely). However, this is not the only evidence relevant to the question of whether God exists.
                            I'm sorry. I don't follow you- unless you're just talking about God being beyond existence.
                            O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                            A neat video of dead languages!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                              I'm sorry. I don't follow you- unless you're just talking about God being beyond existence.
                              I'm saying that if you're only consider the evidence E (E= some things exist), Occam's razor may indicate that the simplest explanation (of the two) is that no God exists, but this E is not the only evidence relevant to God's existence.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              115 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                              13 responses
                              62 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Gondwanaland  
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,601 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,238 responses
                              54,947 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X