Atonement or Human Sacrifice on the Cross?

[NormATive]

I would hardly consider the Jewish Covenant a perfect and reliable plan for salvation of humanity. Considering the diverse flawed claims and problems with the religions of the world perfection is nowhere to be seen. Considering the Jewish Covenant only considers one small group of tribes in all of the world throughout history it could hardly address the the universal problem of God's relationship to humanity.

Neither do I. I don't see any need for salvation since I don't believe in Original Sin, or sin in general for that matter.

The question at hand is based around the Christian story. It purports to improve upon the salvation described in the Tanakh, because the Christians believe that they worship G-d. Therefore, the question: why is that necessary? Why would G-d need to adapt the plan of salvation for his own (whom the Christians claim as being among that number)?

NORM

[robrecht]

Neither do I. I don't see any need for salvation since I don't believe in Original Sin, or sin in general for that matter.

The question at hand is based around the Christian story. It purports to improve upon the salvation described in the Tanakh, because the Christians believe that they worship G-d. Therefore, the question: why is that necessary? Why would G-d need to adapt the plan of salvation for his own (whom the Christians claim as being among that number)?

NORM

Christians, at least the better theologians among them and some of the earliest, do not believe that God needed to adapt the plan of salvation nor that he did adapt the plan of salvation. Some Christians believe that the Incarnation was needed because of the fall (felix culpa), while others believe that the Incarnation was always part of God's plan, that creation and salvation are all part of a continual process. But both groups of Christian theologians believe that God had enough foresight that this was not a change in his plan.

[Truthseeker]

Whats the question exactly? Why did God have one set of rules for salvation for Israel under the law, and another way for salvation through Jesus? The book of Hebrews goes into that question pretty thoroughly. Long story short, the Law was a shadow of what was to come. Read Hebrews 10, or, heck read the whole book. You can find a decent article on the subject here too. http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Test...salvation.html

To the question "Why did God create this or that?" there is no general answer. E.g. why be saved that way? Indeed, why should we be saved at all?

[Truthseeker]

I guess Norm@ive wants a satisfactory answer to every question that he can think up before he will become a Christian.

[JohnnyP]

Well, that whole ten paragraphs you just posted is 100% Christian theology pretending to be fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. I could spend a week describing what is REALLY meant by Moshiac, the role of David within Judaism and the reasons that a human cannot be G-d.

Yeah we were discussing the Christian view, but I can use only the Tanach and Jewish sources to illustrate:

But, you still haven't answered the question at hand: why does G-d need to re-do salvation? Did G-d screw it up the first time?

NORM

No. But first, the House of Israel broke the Old Covenant so God "divorced" her:

Source: KJV

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

© Copyright Original Source

God promised David that he would have an everlasting kingdom of Israel, which meant both Houses of Israel and Judah, a unified Kingdom:

Source: KJV

2 Samuel 7:11-13 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2 Chronicles 7:18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

© Copyright Original Source

Here in Ezekiel God is talking about the New Covenant of Peace with a unified Kingdom and sin is no more:

Source: KJV

Ezekiel 37:21-26 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

© Copyright Original Source

We see clearly that the Messiah of David, whoever we think that is, will be King. But here it says God is King?

Source: KJV

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

© Copyright Original Source

What it's saying is that God is King and Messiah is King, a human with supernatural power of God to judge people without human senses:

Source: KJV

Isaiah 11:1-4 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

© Copyright Original Source

We can also see that in a big way, Gentiles will follow this person:

Source: KJV

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

© Copyright Original Source

To summarize here: there needs to be a New Covenant to bring Israel back in to fulfill the Messianic Covenant, the Messiah is the same as God judging and cleansing sin, and Gentiles will follow him.

---

In the New Covenant of Jeremiah as we saw from Ezekiel, one function we saw is to bring the House of Israel scattered to Gentiles back in with Judah. It also includes Gentiles, represented here as the "beasts" among "men" of Israel and Judah:

Source: KJV

Jeremiah 31:27-28 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

© Copyright Original Source

Another important aspect of the New Covenant of salvation is that the curse of Adam's sin on everyone is lifted, without that everyone is doomed no matter what:

Source: Rabbi Winston, torah.org

Hence, ultimately, death and spiritual defilement (which came into the world as a result of the death that Adam and Chava caused through their sin), is that which interferes with one's potential to relate to G-d, which can be the result of the person, his environment, or both. -Source

© Copyright Original Source

After that everyone only answers for their own sins, not sins of Adam:

Source: KJV

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

© Copyright Original Source

Then it gets right to the point, it's not like the Old Covenant made out of Egypt, but one that makes an end of sin:

Source: KJV

Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

© Copyright Original Source

So the New Covenant is obviously greater in scope than the Old Covenant, and NT theology is what is described here.

[Gnostic Bishop]

To the question "Why did God create this or that?" there is no general answer. E.g. why be saved that way? Indeed, why should we be saved at all?

Why would a God condemn us without our having elected him to do so in the first place?

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt or alter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of the guilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote God in as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

Regards
DL

[JohnnyP]

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt or alter his justice and judgement.

It's not to be understood as a human sacrifice, it's about Jesus remaining obedient to the Father in the face of persecution so he'd be worthy to be Messiah King of David judging Israel and the world of its sins and giving mercy, that's the salvation. If a man disobeys God and bows to human powers he isn't worthy of judging others.

[Gnostic Bishop]

It's not to be understood as a human sacrifice, it's about Jesus remaining obedient to the Father in the face of persecution so he'd be worthy to be Messiah King of David judging Israel and the world of its sins and giving mercy, that's the salvation. If a man disobeys God and bows to human powers he isn't worthy of judging others.

It is to be understood as what it is. A barbaric human sacrifice that Christians immorally think they should profit from.

I note you ignore the injustice aspect.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards
DL

[Christianbookworm]

We are not polytheists you dolt! Go take a Theology class and learn what the Trinity is. And not the DC Comics kind either!

[Gnostic Bishop]

We are not polytheists you dolt! Go take a Theology class and learn what the Trinity is. And not the DC Comics kind either!

I already know that. A perversion of the older Trinity that was God, Goddess and child.

Like everything else Christianity does, it did that concept backwards as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ

Regards
DL

[Christianbookworm]

I already know that. A perversion of the older Trinity that was God, Goddess and child.

Like everything else Christianity does, it did that concept backwards as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ


Regards
DL

Uh, no. Just because DC Comics calls three different characters as a group a trinity does not make them a legit Trinity. Those characters also aren't THAT powerful. Powerful, but not God powerful.

[Christianbookworm]

The Muslim guy's also an idiot when it comes to understanding Christian theology. How would you like it if I told you what you believed and I actually misinterpreted it?

[NormATive]

Some Christians believe that the Incarnation was needed because of the fall (felix culpa), while others believe that the Incarnation was always part of God's plan, that creation and salvation are all part of a continual process. But both groups of Christian theologians believe that God had enough foresight that this was not a change in his plan.

The original plan of salvation was AFTER the so-called Fall, correct? If so, why would G-d need to adjust it? Was it not working properly? I'm still not seeing a valid reason for changing the plan.

The logical conclusion is that it (human sacrifice) is its own plan - the Christian plan (presumably to appease the pagan Romans?). So, it wasn't G-d's idea - it was the Christian community who thought that G-d's plan was somehow lacking in order to attract the wealthy Romans to the community?

NORM

[robrecht]

The original plan of salvation was AFTER the so-called Fall, correct? If so, why would G-d need to adjust it? Was it not working properly? I'm still not seeing a valid reason for changing the plan.

The logical conclusion is that it (human sacrifice) is its own plan - the Christian plan (presumably to appease the pagan Romans?). So, it wasn't G-d's idea - it was the Christian community who thought that G-d's plan was somehow lacking in order to attract the wealthy Romans to the community?

NORM

No, not correct, at least not according to some of the earliest Christian theologians who saw creation and salvation as one single, evolutionary process. According to this idea God had always intended to become man (incarnation) as part of the evolution of man toward God (theosis). According to this view (Irenaeus et al), the incarnation was not a means of salvation that was only required because of the fall of man. The Fall did not change God's plan. Man only 'fell' as a child stumbles while learning to walk. But, even the other view (Augustine et al), that the incarnation was required because of the fall could still see the fall as relatively minor in terms of the the abounding glory of the incarnation which it brought about. This later view is enshrined in the Exsultet of the Easter liturgy as felix culpa, ie, 'happy fault': O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem. O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer. This view can still sees the final redeemed state as greater than if there had never been a fall for God considered it better to bring a greater good from evil than to have never permitted evil.

[NormATive]

If the question is, "Out of all possible universes, why did God chose this universe?" That is a reasonable question, indeed. Do you really expect anyone to presume to answer for God, though?

I would just think that Christians would have a good explanation for why they think G-d needed to alter the plan. It shouldn't be rocket science. So, what is it?

And I don't know what reason God has to NOT enlighten you. Maybe God wants many atheists.

Enlightenment comes from within.

I did ask myself, "Is there an answer I could find that would convince Norm@ive to become Christian?" Still trying to think of one.

No thanks. If I'm going to worship a deity, I'll choose one that is a straight shooter. These newfangled ones are too confusing.

NORM