Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Atonement or Human Sacrifice on the Cross?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Atonement or Human Sacrifice on the Cross?

    This is copied to continue from Judaism > The New Testament is Anti-Semitic to Apologetics if non-theists also want to discuss.


    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (1Pet. 1:18-19).
    Yes, I agree that's a shorthand way of saying it, but since we're in the Judaism area I'll illustrate what kind of problems this can cause if we don't elaborate:
    IN SHORT... What, EXACTLY does Gd say about human sacrifice in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible? In Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Gd calls human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him...This teaches that Gd would not accept Jesus' death on the cross as a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. The very idea of that Gd would accept a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is unbiblical. -Rabbi Federow




    So I'll elaborate again about it:

    The Old Covenant sacrifice by the Levite Priesthood was only a shadow and symbolic of the New Covenant foreshadowed by the Melchizedek Priesthood ministering bread and wine to Abraham. Where bread/flesh is symbolic of the Word of God, and wine/blood is symbolic of the New Covenant:
    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    The blood shedding here is the result of Jesus remaining obedient to the Father in the face of death:
    Hebrews 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    Then his obedience enabled him to be the author of salvation, that is, to be the Judge who can give us mercy and forgiveness for our sins:
    2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    So the longhand way to explain it is, the flesh and blood sacrifice of Jesus in obedience to the Father was a means to get into the position to minister a Melchizedek Priesthood of bread and wine where the real work of salvation begins:
    BREAD/WORD OF GOD/MESSAGE OF REPENTANCE

    Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    WINE/NEW COVENANT/FORGIVENESS OF SIN

    Abolishing the curse of death on everyone for Adam's sin:

    Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

    Forgiveness of our own sins if we repent:

    Jeremiah 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Jeremiah 31:34 ...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    I think its best to highlight that the Hebrew scriptures, including the Talmud, teach that the death of the righteous has atoning power. Indeed, when Yeshua the Messiah, the totally righteous one, laid down his life, it was the ultimate act of atonement in human history. Feel free to read Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. Michael brown deal with this Jewish and Islamic objection here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Respo...atonement1.htm
    I read that and the article you sent me, for example: "These Jews obviously believed that their deaths did have an effect upon the nation, and even beseeched God to accept their martyrdom as atonement for Israel’s sins!"

    Yes but we have to consider, who is giving the atonement?
    Source: KJV

    2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    © Copyright Original Source


    If it is Jesus, then the atoning comes in as, he was obedient to the Father to the death, then Jesus was found worthy to be Judge of our sins and give us mercy, THEN we receive atonement.

    We're saying the same thing, he died for us, except you're skipping the step of Jesus judging and giving atonement to the quick and the dead, and going right from death to atoning. If you insist that sins are atoned for by his death alone like a scapegoat, when does Jesus get a chance to judge or give mercy to anyone?

    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    Thanks for reading the articles! If you wish to further discuss the atonement it'd be best to start a new thread.

    Thanks!


    That's where we left off.

  • #2
    The only positive thing I can say about the Christian version of Atonement is that it is very creative.

    I don't think there is anything to atone for, in the first place, since I don't believe in Original Sin. No sin; no sacrifice.

    However, this whole notion of Jesus' atonement only goes to emphasize my contention that Christians worship a different god than YHWH.

    The Tanakh describes how G-d forgives sins: YHWH just does it:

    Tehillim 103:12 (OJB)

    12 As far as the mizrach (east) is from the ma’arav (west), so far hath He removed peysha’einu (our transgressions) from us
    Only YHWH has the power to forgive sins committed against G-d (murder, war, idolatry, etc), and does so on the Day of Atonement, a celebration we call Yom Kippur, which is observed right after Rosh Hashanah (New Year). On that day, Jews are told that G-d forgives the sins of the people communally. Interestingly, G-d CANNOT forgive wrongs one human commits against another - only the person wronged can forgive the wrong doer. The explanation is that these are not sins committed against G-d; therefore, G-d cannot tend to these. This is why the first thing we do after Rosh Hashanah is to seek out those we've wronged and ask forgiveness.

    There is no question that G-d will indeed forgive our sins. Part of Ha Shem means forgiveness. So, from the Jewish perspective, why would G-d need to send his only son (an impossible being to the Jewish mind) to die for our sins when G-d is already promising to do this?

    This is why Christians most assuredly worship a different god from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      The only positive thing I can say about the Christian version of Atonement is that it is very creative.

      I don't think there is anything to atone for, in the first place, since I don't believe in Original Sin. No sin; no sacrifice.

      However, this whole notion of Jesus' atonement only goes to emphasize my contention that Christians worship a different god than YHWH.

      The Tanakh describes how G-d forgives sins: YHWH just does it:



      Only YHWH has the power to forgive sins committed against G-d (murder, war, idolatry, etc), and does so on the Day of Atonement, a celebration we call Yom Kippur, which is observed right after Rosh Hashanah (New Year). On that day, Jews are told that G-d forgives the sins of the people communally. Interestingly, G-d CANNOT forgive wrongs one human commits against another - only the person wronged can forgive the wrong doer. The explanation is that these are not sins committed against G-d; therefore, G-d cannot tend to these. This is why the first thing we do after Rosh Hashanah is to seek out those we've wronged and ask forgiveness.

      There is no question that G-d will indeed forgive our sins. Part of Ha Shem means forgiveness. So, from the Jewish perspective, why would G-d need to send his only son (an impossible being to the Jewish mind) to die for our sins when G-d is already promising to do this?

      This is why Christians most assuredly worship a different god from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      NORM
      Uh huh. Here's God, just forgiving:

      When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

      He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”

      “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

      Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

      Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

      The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

      So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

      The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

      And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.


      Three thousand dead, a plague, and all who sin against Him are blotted out of His book. Tikkun Olam!
      Last edited by Darth Executor; 11-11-2014, 11:03 PM.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        So, from the Jewish perspective, why would G-d need to send his only son (an impossible being to the Jewish mind) to die for our sins when G-d is already promising to do this?
        There are various sons of God and man, and messiahs, in the Tanach. But THE Son of God and Man, and Messiah, is understood to be the Son of David promised here:
        Source: KJV

        2 Samuel 7:12-14 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

        Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David...

        © Copyright Original Source


        The very first thing we're told about Jesus in the NT is that he's Son of David, and from there we know where he gets the other titles. Solomon was kind of a false alarm since his throne and Temple were toppled due to idolatry, but Jesus will be the one to have an everlasting throne and Temple. So the Son of God isn't necessarily a claim to divinity as is, it's a claim to being THE Messiah, to clear that up.

        But elsewhere we see that the Messiah will have power of God to judge sins, he doesn't use his human senses to do it, they're supernatural, that's where being fully God comes in:
        Source: KJV

        Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

        Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

        Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

        Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

        Rashi's commentary from Chabad: and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge: For, with the wisdom of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is within him, will he know and understand who is innocent and who is guilty.

        © Copyright Original Source


        So this isn't your average king, he is going to be God to the people. My previous posts explained that first Jesus had to be obedient to the Father in the face of persecution and death to be found worthy of all this power, he died to get it, and then he'll use it to forgive sins and give mercy, or to slay the wicked as applicable.

        Thus it's not a human sacrifice like a scapegoat, there's more to it that is parallel to Judaism's view of Messiah ben Joseph being slain, then Messiah ben David appearing to conquer, along with the Righteous Priest Melchizedek to offer atonement. Along with Elijah, these are the Four Craftsmen discussed in the Talmud and other Jewish texts.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
          There are various sons of God and man, and messiahs, in the Tanach. But THE Son of God and Man, and Messiah, is understood to be the Son of David promised here:
          Source: KJV

          2 Samuel 7:12-14 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

          Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David...

          © Copyright Original Source


          The very first thing we're told about Jesus in the NT is that he's Son of David, and from there we know where he gets the other titles. Solomon was kind of a false alarm since his throne and Temple were toppled due to idolatry, but Jesus will be the one to have an everlasting throne and Temple. So the Son of God isn't necessarily a claim to divinity as is, it's a claim to being THE Messiah, to clear that up.

          But elsewhere we see that the Messiah will have power of God to judge sins, he doesn't use his human senses to do it, they're supernatural, that's where being fully God comes in:
          Source: KJV

          Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

          Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

          Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

          Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

          Rashi's commentary from Chabad: and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge: For, with the wisdom of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is within him, will he know and understand who is innocent and who is guilty.

          © Copyright Original Source


          So this isn't your average king, he is going to be God to the people. My previous posts explained that first Jesus had to be obedient to the Father in the face of persecution and death to be found worthy of all this power, he died to get it, and then he'll use it to forgive sins and give mercy, or to slay the wicked as applicable.

          Thus it's not a human sacrifice like a scapegoat, there's more to it that is parallel to Judaism's view of Messiah ben Joseph being slain, then Messiah ben David appearing to conquer, along with the Righteous Priest Melchizedek to offer atonement. Along with Elijah, these are the Four Craftsmen discussed in the Talmud and other Jewish texts.
          Fine. I understand Christian theology quite well, but none of this answers my question. G-d already had a perfect and reliable plan of salvation. Why would G-d need to reinvent the wheel?

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
            Fine. I understand Christian theology quite well, but none of this answers my question. G-d already had a perfect and reliable plan of salvation. Why would G-d need to reinvent the wheel?

            NORM
            In the Tanach scriptures cited David's Messiah will be in charge of judging his own kingdom which is global so he needs to be like God to do it well. It's just fulfilling the promise to David.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
              In the Tanach scriptures cited David's Messiah will be in charge of judging his own kingdom which is global so he needs to be like God to do it well. It's just fulfilling the promise to David.
              Well, that whole ten paragraphs you just posted is 100% Christian theology pretending to be fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. I could spend a week describing what is REALLY meant by Moshiac, the role of David within Judaism and the reasons that a human cannot be G-d.

              But, you still haven't answered the question at hand: why does G-d need to re-do salvation? Did G-d screw it up the first time?

              NORM
              When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                ... you still haven't answered the question at hand: why does G-d need to re-do salvation? Did G-d screw it up the first time?
                Nobody knows why history (i.e., God's plan for the universe) has unfolded and is unfolding as it has and is. Your questions remind me of that by the old lady in this little story:
                A little old lady went to an art exhibition and happened to view Picasso's Guernica. "My goodness, why did that artist, if he really is an artist, do it that way!?"
                Among a great many possible universes that God could have chosen, perhaps it just so happens that God chose this particular universe.

                Some questions are just not answerable. What could Picasso say about his painting!?
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  Nobody knows why history (i.e., God's plan for the universe) has unfolded and is unfolding as it has and is. Your questions remind me of that by the old lady in this little story:
                  A little old lady went to an art exhibition and happened to view Picasso's Guernica. "My goodness, why did that artist, if he really is an artist, do it that way!?"
                  Among a great many possible universes that God could have chosen, perhaps it just so happens that God chose this particular universe.

                  Some questions are just not answerable. What could Picasso say about his painting!?
                  I think it is a reasonable question to ask. As a Christian, I should think this would be covered in 101.

                  NORM
                  When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                    Fine. I understand Christian theology quite well, but none of this answers my question. G-d already had a perfect and reliable plan of salvation. Why would G-d need to reinvent the wheel?

                    NORM
                    I would hardly consider the Jewish Covenant a perfect and reliable plan for salvation of humanity. Considering the diverse flawed claims and problems with the religions of the world perfection is nowhere to be seen. Considering the Jewish Covenant only considers one small group of tribes in all of the world throughout history it could hardly address the the universal problem of God's relationship to humanity.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I would hardly consider the Jewish Covenant a perfect and reliable plan for salvation of humanity. Considering the diverse flawed claims and problems with the religions of the world perfection is nowhere to be seen. Considering the Jewish Covenant only considers one small group of tribes in all of the world throughout history it could hardly address the the universal problem of God's relationship to humanity.
                      Not sure what is meant by "Jewish Covenant." God's covenant with Abraham, Moses, or David? Or all three? Or just the latter one?
                      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        Not sure what is meant by "Jewish Covenant." God's covenant with Abraham, Moses, or David? Or all three? Or just the latter one?
                        As for today's Judaism, and the Tanakh, all of the above
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                          I think it is a reasonable question to ask. As a Christian, I should think this would be covered in 101.
                          If the question is, "Out of all possible universes, why did God chose this universe?" That is a reasonable question, indeed. Do you really expect anyone to presume to answer for God, though? And I don't know what reason God has to NOT enlighten you. Maybe God wants many atheists.

                          I did ask myself, "Is there an answer I could find that would convince Norm@ive to become Christian?" Still trying to think of one.
                          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                            If the question is, "Out of all possible universes, why did God chose this universe?" That is a reasonable question, indeed. Do you really expect anyone to presume to answer for God, though? And I don't know what reason God has to NOT enlighten you. Maybe God wants many atheists.

                            I did ask myself, "Is there an answer I could find that would convince Norm@ive to become Christian?" Still trying to think of one.
                            I see no reason that God has not chosen millions of life giving planets in our universe, as well as billions in all possible universes.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                              If the question is, "Out of all possible universes, why did God chose this universe?" That is a reasonable question, indeed. Do you really expect anyone to presume to answer for God, though? And I don't know what reason God has to NOT enlighten you. Maybe God wants many atheists.

                              I did ask myself, "Is there an answer I could find that would convince Norm@ive to become Christian?" Still trying to think of one.
                              Whats the question exactly? Why did God have one set of rules for salvation for Israel under the law, and another way for salvation through Jesus? The book of Hebrews goes into that question pretty thoroughly. Long story short, the Law was a shadow of what was to come. Read Hebrews 10, or, heck read the whole book. You can find a decent article on the subject here too. http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Test...salvation.html

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              120 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                              13 responses
                              65 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Gondwanaland  
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,602 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,249 responses
                              55,002 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Tassman
                              by Tassman
                               
                              Working...
                              X