My perspective on The Problem of Evil

[Kelp(p)]

Ok but if you're gonna ban relevant tangents then don't be surprised if you never get a satisfactory answer.

I'm willing to entertain the one about Adam and Eve. I don't consider the abortion debate a relevant tangent because it's using an example that not everybody accepts is an evil in the first place. We have enough noncontroversial cases to use.

[Darth Executor]

I don't see how that's possible unless one is a YEC. Earthquakes are a necessary side effect of the movement of tectonic plates. An Eden without tectonic activity would be a miraculous construct that strains even the most literal view of Genesis.

You don't need an Eden without tectonic activity (though I should note that tectonic activity is deadly only in extreme situations, most people have nothing to fear from earthquakes and Eden could have been placed in a relatively stable area). You just need humans who were, in some form, impervious to death.

[Adrift]

That is often true. Though the attempt to continue to view the God who lets toddlers get cancer as my loving Father has certainly caused me a fair amount of mental suffering over the years- sometimes leading to self-harm and suicidal thoughts. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Many Christians believe that the world is currently in a fallen state, and that this isn't God's desire.

This is going to sound controversial, but I believe its not that God necessarily lets toddlers get cancer, but that, for the most part, his current ability to intervene is, in some ways, legally limited. I also believe that prayer and faithfulness can, in some fashion or another, untie his hands so that his will is manifest. We maybe see a glimpse of this in scripture in Daniel 10 where a divine messenger is prevented for weeks from delivering a message to Daniel by the Prince of Persia (a demonic force). It took the combined effort of Michael, one of the chief princes, for the messenger to get through.

Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, 14. and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

If Satan truly is the god of this world, and he truly does desire to steal, kill, and destroy all of those who may come to a saving faith, then its a miracle he hasn't utterly succeeded. I believe its only because of the faithful, the lights of this world, that more evil hasn't befallen it. As bad as its been (and I agree, its been bad), it could have been far far worse. And for all of the terrible and rotten things people have done to one another over the ages, there's also been a whole lot of good as well.

One of the things I wonder about the Problem of Evil is does the problem go away if there is no God? Does evil go away if there is no God? If there is no God, all of those people who suffered and died horrible deaths still suffered and died horrible deaths, right? If that suffering and death somehow more meaningful without God?

[JohnnyP]

G-d is not a being that is concerned with the goings on of the people who make up the world...G-d is the enabling spirit, the motivation to make things go right.

So God is just an idea like Santa Claus and the Spirit of Christmas who inspire people to do good things, not a real deity that cares about or interacts with the world. Interesting.

[pancreasman]

Many Christians believe that the world is currently in a fallen state, and that this isn't God's desire.

This is going to sound controversial, but I believe its not that God necessarily lets toddlers get cancer, but that, for the most part, his current ability to intervene is, in some ways, legally limited. I also believe that prayer and faithfulness can, in some fashion or another, untie his hands so that his will is manifest. We maybe see a glimpse of this in scripture in Daniel 10 where a divine messenger is prevented for weeks from delivering a message to Daniel by the Prince of Persia (a demonic force). It took the combined effort of Michael, one of the chief princes, for the messenger to get through.

Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, 14. and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

If Satan truly is the god of this world, and he truly does desire to steal, kill, and destroy all of those who may come to a saving faith, then its a miracle he hasn't utterly succeeded. I believe its only because of the faithful, the lights of this world, that more evil hasn't befallen it. As bad as its been (and I agree, its been bad), it could have been far far worse. And for all of the terrible and rotten things people have done to one another over the ages, there's also been a whole lot of good as well.

One of the things I wonder about the Problem of Evil is does the problem go away if there is no God? Does evil go away if there is no God? If there is no God, all of those people who suffered and died horrible deaths still suffered and died horrible deaths, right? If that suffering and death somehow more meaningful without God?

I do agree that a reasonable attempt at reconciling the problem of evil is to limit God's omnipotence in some way. If it is ultimately self-limiting then the problem only goes back one step. Why would God knowingly limit his ability to act when he was aware what the consequences would be?

[Kelp(p)]

You don't need an Eden without tectonic activity (though I should note that tectonic activity is deadly only in extreme situations, most people have nothing to fear from earthquakes and Eden could have been placed in a relatively stable area). You just need humans who were, in some form, impervious to death.

Point taken. I didn't think about that.

[JohnnyP]

What redeeming qualities were there in the suffering...

Would you more fully developed and knowledgeable and better as a human being if you had no mercy or compassion? Because that's what you'd be if there was no suffering. That's one benefit.

[Kelp(p)]

Many Christians believe that the world is currently in a fallen state, and that this isn't God's desire.

I do to in the sense of human behavior. I'm just not sure a good God would have allowed this to happen.

This is going to sound controversial, but I believe its not that God necessarily lets toddlers get cancer, but that, for the most part, his current ability to intervene is, in some ways, legally limited. I also believe that prayer and faithfulness can, in some fashion or another, untie his hands so that his will is manifest. We maybe see a glimpse of this in scripture in Daniel 10 where a divine messenger is prevented for weeks from delivering a message to Daniel by the Prince of Persia (a demonic force). It took the combined effort of Michael, one of the chief princes, for the messenger to get through.

Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, 14. and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

If Satan truly is the god of this world, and he truly does desire to steal, kill, and destroy all of those who may come to a saving faith, then its a miracle he hasn't utterly succeeded. I believe its only because of the faithful, the lights of this world, that more evil hasn't befallen it. As bad as its been (and I agree, its been bad), it could have been far far worse. And for all of the terrible and rotten things people have done to one another over the ages, there's also been a whole lot of good as well.

I think you're taking "god of the world" far too literally. Paul was likely just saying that Satan is the one behind Roman paganism, especially the official cult of Caesar.

I reject the "legal contract" line of thought for the same reason I reject Origen's theory that the Crucifixion was a payment to Satan. I don't think God would put Himself in a position to be put over a barrel by one of His creations, especially one who had defiled itself so considerably. The OT passages you cite are interesting, but to me they're chestnuts in need of a different interpretation (or possibly rejection. I haven't been in inerrantist in a long time) the same way Judges 1:19's suggestion that God was stopped by iron chariots does.

One of the things I wonder about the Problem of Evil is does the problem go away if there is no God? Does evil go away if there is no God? If there is no God, all of those people who suffered and died horrible deaths still suffered and died horrible deaths, right? If that suffering and death somehow more meaningful without God?

By no means. If there is no God, then we're living in a cosmic joke with no punchline. We can either respond with suicide or try to find some subjective reason to carry on.

[Adrift]

I do agree that a reasonable attempt at reconciling the problem of evil is to limit God's omnipotence in some way. If it is ultimately self-limiting then the problem only goes back one step. Why would God knowingly limit his ability to act when he was aware what the consequences would be?

I don't know that I would agree that by legally limiting his interaction, God is necessarily limiting his omnipotence. For instance, I don't think God was any less omnipotent when he made his legally binding covenant with Israel. But maybe there's not a better way of putting it, so I won't debate the point.

But I believe (or hope) that I answered your question in my first post in this thread.

[pancreasman]

But I believe (or hope) that I answered your question in my first post in this thread.

You answered it, but I don't like your answer.

[Adrift]

By no means. If there is no God, then we're living in a cosmic joke with no punchline. We can either respond with suicide or try to find some subjective reason to carry on.

On a purely intellectual level, and separate from thoughts about the "god of this world", does the Problem of Evil preclude the existence of any god altogether? Is an evil god or an apathetic god at all conceivable to you?

[Adrift]

You answered it, but I don't like your answer.

That's fair.

[JohnnyP]

Why would God knowingly limit his ability to act when he was aware what the consequences would be?

In Christianity, Jesus is fully God and fully human, able as God to access his omni-potence/presence/science at any time but limited himself to be a human able to be tempted to selfishness and sin, even to the point of being aware of His own death and suffering as a human. One reason was to exalt the human to be the best he could be as a human by his own free will, not as a robot or being controlled by a "Sky Daddy." To help everyone else realize who they can be as a human instead of crying out, why can't I be like God and end suffering when I want it to end?

Which is kind of what's going on here, some think they can be God better than God can, without actually having that power and instead suffering like Jesus did. Which goes back to why Adam and Eve fell in the first place:

Genesis 3:5 ...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[Kelp(p)]

Is an evil god or an apathetic god at all conceivable to you?

Very much so. I think it might even be likely. Though if it came to that, I would also be tempted to try OVT or Harold Kushner's "wants to help but isn't powerful enough" God.

[Kelp(p)]

I'm not talking about physical form, as you said like gas or liquid, but spirit. God's limited presence is here by the Word and Spirit. If the infinite presence of God weren't withdrawn and was everywhere permeating everything, we'd all be God and that's pantheism.

And yet the Bible says that God is closer to us that our own breath. I interpret omnipresence as being about God's knowledge and His reach. For example, the Eastern Orthodox believe that the Divine Liturgy is essentially a trip to Heaven in which the congregation is united invisibly with God and the Saints. It's not that He is always with us, we are always with Him. So, I see the idea that there was ever a "there-ness" of God that needed to move aside for us to exist to be vague and unnecessary.

Source: Real Clear Science

Then along came quantum mechanics. When physicists observed that behavior at the atomic level was fundamentally indeterminate, the universal validity of classical physics, as well as philosophical determinism came into question. -Source

© Copyright Original Source

I disagree with that conclusion. It works for a technical definition of the word "determinism" but in practice it just means that our behavior might ultimately be completely random. That's not free will.

But then after God all parents should be blamed for continuing the suffering by procreating? If you have kids do you regret it, since you could prevent them and countless descendants from suffering?

I don't have kids. It is a highly interesting question, though. Maybe it would be better if we just let the species die off, a mercy killing of sorts. I'm not sure on the topic.

You wouldn't exist as you anymore, same as if you never existed. I'd rather live my life suffering and all.

Do you have a terminal disease? Ever been in a famine? Ever been tortured? Ever lost a child? I haven't. And I'm not sure any of us has the right to be glib about something like that unless we've really suffered.