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My perspective on The Problem of Evil

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  • #16
    For the record: I don't think God created Satan. I think God created Lucifer. And Lucifer made the choice to be all the things God was not. So we humans have the identical choices and influences if we choose them.

    I'm obviously into free will and spiritual influences. Of course I tend to think other religions have other explanations (Pandora's box for one) Buddhism explains suffering to enlighten us which isn't TOO far off the mark though gives no reason for it, except for tantrism... etc.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
      I think most religions attempt to come up with an answer for the problem of evil. There are a lot of religions that explain this one in myths. I find the best answer to Christianity is a partial one, which is why evil exists, and that has everything to do with Lucifer's choice of pride and desire for revenge on God for his punishment, which admittedly, seems very myth-like in and of itself; and the result of evil's effect on human suffering, which, IF we allow it to, gives us the opportunity to know God, and understand his Love for us and show it to others. I don't pretend to understand, but I think that is what makes the most sense to me. Not that its my choice anyway
      Simply in the view of the Baha'i Faith evil dose not exist. Ancient world views describe evil as the adversary world of their own religious view, and the dark at the end on the cave they did not understand. Time to light a torch and leave Plato's cave.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-11-2014, 03:31 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Simply in the Baha'i Faith evil dose not exist. Ancient world views describe evil as the adversary world of their own religious view, and the dark a=at the end on the cave they did not understand. Tim to light a torch and leave Plato's cave.
        So, in the Baha'i Faith, if a person were to molest or murder a child, that would not be considered evil? And if there is no evil, would it also be correct to say that in the Baha'i Faith good does not exist either?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
          As you can see, I have a hard escaping the idea that God Himself died in the ovens at Auschwitz and He isn't going to rise again this time.
          I have the privilege of attending a Jewish community with a rather large contingent of Holocaust survivors. One of them (I'll call him Abraham), who is in his 90s, tells me that the religious leaders of his group prayed daily for their deliverance from the hands of the brutal Nazi prison guards. Yet, nothing at all happened until the French and American soldiers liberated their camp. In fact, most of the religious leaders died along with most of Abraham's family including his wife, both of his children, his father and mother and his brothers and sisters. Only his niece and he survived.

          He said that as the last of the pious elders were led to the torture chambers and eventually the gas chambers, they all wondered where was G-d in all of this. They came to the conclusion that they were on their own. They realized that they had been thinking of G-d in entirely the wrong way. G-d was not some cosmic servant who does the bidding of the righteous, and that if bad things happened to you, it was because of the sinfulness of mankind.

          They came to see the Holocaust as the human equivalent of a Typhoon. We do not view the typhoon as inherently evil. Yet, it causes massive death and destruction in its wake. Likewise, the actors on the world stage of European Imperialism - including the Nazi machine - were like a philosophical monsoon, thrashing about causing death and destruction in all directions. The goal, seen from the eyes of those who perpetrated the horror, was peace through purity and prosperity. They didn't see their actions as evil, but as necessary. Testimony during the Nuremberg Trials will illustrate this point.

          My friend, Abraham, read everything he could about the Shoah - seeking some kind of "reason" for their suffering. G-d promised them that they were the chosen people, and that G-d will never cease to rescue them in their time of need. That G-d would avenge those who would lift a hand against them. Yet, G-d was absent. Nowhere to be found. Had they been unfaithful? No, they said the Sh'ma every day. They observed Shabbat. They trained their children to love the L-rd with all of their hearts. Had they turned their back on G-d? No. In Germany, the Jewish community prospered, and they gave all the glory to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph - proudly proclaiming their providence from the very hand of G-d.


          So, what happened? Had G-d just simply lost interest in them? Did the Christians, whom they saw fraternizing with the Nazis, strike a better bargain with G-d?

          This didn't make sense.

          No, they simply misunderstood what was really going on.

          G-d is not a being that is concerned with the goings on of the people who make up the world. There is no Moschiac who will save the day, riding on a white horse and ushering in world peace. No.

          And, then they remembered the words of one of the ancients (who was a contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, according to legend):

          "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" - Hillel
          This has been the motto of the Reformed Jewish movement ever since.

          And, now perhaps you may understand why Reformed Jews are all about volunteerism, charity and civil rights. G-d is the enabling spirit, the motivation to make things go right. To clean up after the Typhoons of life.

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Saying that you love someone is quite different than putting that love into action. What value is there in loving the perfectly lovable?

            But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
            So why do you refuse to show any sort of discernible love to people who simply hold different political views than your own, and instead say things like you wish they'd be thrown to the Taliban/ISIS?

            But the bottom line is that we either live in a universe were suffering could have redeeming qualities, or we live in a universe where suffering is completely meaningless.
            What redeeming qualities were there in the suffering of tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of Chinese women who were brutally raped, genitally mutilated and killed by Japanese soldiers in the 1937 Nanjing Massacre? Or in the suffering of the countless Native Americans who were poisoned by American soldiers and slaughtered or forcibly exiled? Or of the suffering of the Christian-raised teenagers who realize that they experience feelings of attraction towards people of the same sex, are told by church leaders and parents that being gay is shameful and sinful, and tearfully pray in desperation to God every day and night asking to be changed, but nothing happens and they continually hear those voices get louder and louder until eventually they're drowning so deeply in shame and fear and anxiety and self-hatred that they end up taking their own lives?

            I'm sure sentiments like "the depths of God's love and forgiveness can be displayed in a fallen world" are comforting to you personally, but I'm just not sure how that applies to or can be seen by those people whom I mentioned. They certainly didn't seem to sense the presence of God or his love and forgiveness in the midst of their suffering, even when (like the last case) they were desperately praying for a response.
            Last edited by fm93; 11-11-2014, 04:59 PM.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by square_peg View Post

              What redeeming qualities were there in the suffering of tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of Chinese women who were brutally raped, genitally mutilated and killed by Japanese soldiers in the 1937 Nanjing Massacre? Or in the suffering of the countless Native Americans who were poisoned by American soldiers and slaughtered or forcibly exiled? Or of the suffering of the Christian-raised teenagers who realize that they experience feelings of attraction towards people of the same sex, are told by church leaders and parents that being gay is shameful and sinful, and tearfully pray in desperation to God every day and night asking to be changed, but nothing happens and they continually hear those voices get louder and louder until eventually they're drowning so deeply in shame and fear and anxiety and self-hatred that they end up taking their own lives?

              I'm sure sentiments like "the depths of God's love and forgiveness can be displayed in a fallen world" are comforting to you personally, but I'm just not sure how that applies to or can be seen by those people whom I mentioned. They certainly didn't seem to sense the presence of God or his love and forgiveness in the midst of their suffering, even when (like the last case) they were desperately praying for a response.
              Put far more poignantly than I was able to. Thanks.
              O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

              A neat video of dead languages!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                I have the privilege of attending a Jewish community with a rather large contingent of Holocaust survivors. One of them (I'll call him Abraham), who is in his 90s, tells me that the religious leaders of his group prayed daily for their deliverance from the hands of the brutal Nazi prison guards. Yet, nothing at all happened until the French and American soldiers liberated their camp. In fact, most of the religious leaders died along with most of Abraham's family including his wife, both of his children, his father and mother and his brothers and sisters. Only his niece and he survived.

                He said that as the last of the pious elders were led to the torture chambers and eventually the gas chambers, they all wondered where was G-d in all of this. They came to the conclusion that they were on their own. They realized that they had been thinking of G-d in entirely the wrong way. G-d was not some cosmic servant who does the bidding of the righteous, and that if bad things happened to you, it was because of the sinfulness of mankind.

                They came to see the Holocaust as the human equivalent of a Typhoon. We do not view the typhoon as inherently evil. Yet, it causes massive death and destruction in its wake. Likewise, the actors on the world stage of European Imperialism - including the Nazi machine - were like a philosophical monsoon, thrashing about causing death and destruction in all directions. The goal, seen from the eyes of those who perpetrated the horror, was peace through purity and prosperity. They didn't see their actions as evil, but as necessary. Testimony during the Nuremberg Trials will illustrate this point.

                My friend, Abraham, read everything he could about the Shoah - seeking some kind of "reason" for their suffering. G-d promised them that they were the chosen people, and that G-d will never cease to rescue them in their time of need. That G-d would avenge those who would lift a hand against them. Yet, G-d was absent. Nowhere to be found. Had they been unfaithful? No, they said the Sh'ma every day. They observed Shabbat. They trained their children to love the L-rd with all of their hearts. Had they turned their back on G-d? No. In Germany, the Jewish community prospered, and they gave all the glory to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph - proudly proclaiming their providence from the very hand of G-d.


                So, what happened? Had G-d just simply lost interest in them? Did the Christians, whom they saw fraternizing with the Nazis, strike a better bargain with G-d?

                This didn't make sense.

                No, they simply misunderstood what was really going on.

                G-d is not a being that is concerned with the goings on of the people who make up the world. There is no Moschiac who will save the day, riding on a white horse and ushering in world peace. No.

                And, then they remembered the words of one of the ancients (who was a contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, according to legend):



                This has been the motto of the Reformed Jewish movement ever since.

                And, now perhaps you may understand why Reformed Jews are all about volunteerism, charity and civil rights. G-d is the enabling spirit, the motivation to make things go right. To clean up after the Typhoons of life.

                NORM
                Thank you for the perspective. At my most theistic I'm likely closer to that view than anything else (though there are a couple of terminology details we could quibble on).

                I'm just not sure a God who is willing to do no more than push us to clean up this mess ourselves is worth bothering with at all.
                O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                A neat video of dead languages!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                  Put far more poignantly than I was able to. Thanks.
                  I'd really like those theodicy postulates of God's nature to be correct, and for there to truly be an end to suffering and relief/redemption for it all. But I've slowly become convinced over the years that instead of trying to find logical possibilities for why God might allow evil and suffering, it's far more honest and morally right to just throw up my hands and admit that no matter how logically airtight my hypotheses and speculations may be, I simply don't know why such things happen. When evil and suffering happen, we ought to first and foremost grieve with those who are affected and do everything in our power to make sure those things can't happen, or to at least take away the pain as best as we can. Posturing about unseen divine reasons may be a fascinating intellectual exercise, but for all intents and purposes it's useless when applied to the real world directly in front of us.
                  Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                  I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    That is often true. Though the attempt to continue to view the God who lets toddlers get cancer as my loving Father has certainly caused me a fair amount of mental suffering over the years- sometimes leading to self-harm and suicidal thoughts. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
                    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                    A neat video of dead languages!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                      And, now perhaps you may understand why Reformed Jews are all about volunteerism, charity and civil rights. G-d is the enabling spirit, the motivation to make things go right. To clean up after the Typhoons of life.

                      NORM
                      Well, nothing says being all about civil rights like the 60 million unborn children killed by abortion, which all but the most conservative of Jews enthusiastically support. That's what, 10 times the number of Jews killed during the Holocaust? But hey, tikkun olam!
                      Last edited by Darth Executor; 11-11-2014, 06:01 PM.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I don't know, I don't see a real problem here. God gave men a high degree of moral freedom - He is letting us have our way and this is what it looks like.
                        How does our moral freedom effect earthquakes which cause undeserved suffering?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                          How does our moral freedom effect earthquakes which cause undeserved suffering?
                          Adam and Eve bro.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            Well, nothing says being all about civil rights like the 60 million unborn children killed by abortion, which all but the most conservative of Jews enthusiastically support. That's what, 10 times the number of Jews killed during the Holocaust? But hey, tikkun olam!
                            Keep the abortion debate out of my thread, please.
                            O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                            A neat video of dead languages!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                              Keep the abortion debate out of my thread, please.
                              Ok but if you're gonna ban relevant tangents then don't be surprised if you never get a satisfactory answer.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                Adam and Eve bro.
                                I don't see how that's possible unless one is a YEC. Earthquakes are a necessary side effect of the movement of tectonic plates. An Eden without tectonic activity would be a miraculous construct that strains even the most literal view of Genesis.
                                O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                                A neat video of dead languages!

                                Comment

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