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The Logos vs The Word

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  • The Logos vs The Word

    What should be the more accurate translation in the New Testement? Specifically John 1:1

    The Word of God

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

    The Logos of God

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

    Is Word or Logos a better description of the nature of the Christ?

    Not interested in debating just wanting to see what other people feel/think.

  • #2
    That Greek word is translated in the follow verses: Mat_5:37; Mat_28:15; Mar_4:15; Luk_4:32; Luk_4:36; Luk_5:15; Luk_7:17; Luk_8:11; Joh_1:1; Joh_1:14; Joh_4:37; Joh_6:60; Joh_7:36; Joh_8:37; Joh_10:35; Joh_12:38; Joh_12:48; Joh_14:24; Joh_15:25; Joh_17:17; Joh_18:9; Joh_18:32; Joh_21:23; Act_6:5; Act_6:7; Act_11:22; Act_12:24; Act_13:15; Act_13:26; Act_13:49; Act_17:13; Act_19:20; Rom_9:6; Rom_9:9; 1Co_1:18; 1Co_2:4; 1Co_12:8; 1Co_14:36; 1Co_15:54; 2Co_1:18; 2Co_10:10; Eph_4:29; Eph_6:19; Col_3:16; Col_4:6; 1Th_1:8; 2Th_3:1; 1Ti_1:15; 1Ti_3:1; 1Ti_4:9; 2Ti_2:9; 2Ti_2:11; 2Ti_2:17; Tit_2:5; Tit_3:8; Heb_2:2; Heb_4:2; Heb_4:12; Heb_4:13; Heb_5:11; Heb_7:28; 1Jn_1:10; 1Jn_2:7; 1Jn_2:14; [1Jn_5:7;] Rev_19:13;

    It is used both of language and the Person.
    Last edited by 37818; 11-03-2014, 12:43 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #3
      Logos as Christ is a late Christian reinterpretation.
      The following is copied from here:
      http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...n225/Logos.htm

      The Word (Logos) in Jewish and Hellenistic philsophical literature.

      I. Two meanings
      A. Stoic philosophy: Logos (Greek) = The principle of reason immanent in the universe
      1. The world is material; there is no transcendent deity or (as with the Platonists) universal forms
      2. There is a principle of reason that informs the universe and is part of it; that is logos
      3. Understanding that principle allows one to live in harmony with the rational world, which is the virtuous life

      B. Judaism: Dabar (Speech) = The method whereby God created the world
      1. The Word of God is the Torah: it is God's way of communicating with humans
      2. Jewish wisdom literature: wisdom is personified as a divine agent
      a. "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts long ago" (Proverbs 8:22)
      b. in Hebrew, wisdom (Hochma) is female, so is personified as a female figure

      c. Logos (Greek) is male


      II. Philo (d. 50 C.E.)
      A. An educated diaspora Jew from Alexandria

      B. Exponent of a philosophy known as "middle Platonism"
      1. Combines Plato's philosophy of Forms with a transcendant deity
      2. Often identifies this divine principle with the Stoic Logos

      C. Philo's philosophy of God
      1. There is a transcendant deity (God) who is also the God of Jewish revelation
      a. "What is Plato but Moses speaking Attic Greek?"

      2. God is completely unknowable as He is, beyond all human comprehension
      3. God chooses to relate to us in some dim way we can grasp
      4. God can be known through his actions: kingliness and creativity

      5. Both aspects can be recognized in two ways
      a. Throughout the universe, which God created (logos spermatozoi)
      b. Through the Torah, in which God speaks (ho legon) to humans

      6. The Logos is "the image of God . . . with no intervening distance."
      a. metaphor: God seated in his chariot, giving directions (speaking) to the charioteer (Logos) who then drives the horses (kingliness and creativity)
      b. The charioteer wields "the reins of the universe"

      7. Communion with God is possible through meditation on the Torah
      a. Word of God is the soul's food
      b. In the divine Word one "sees God from afar"

      8. Goal of the quest: to recognize that God cannot be known
      "When, therefore, the God-loving soul probes the essence of God, he enters on a quest that is beyond form and sight. And out of this quest there accrues to him a vast gift . . .to see precisely this, that God is incapable of being seen."
      Yet the seekers rejoice nonetheless because the quest itself brings "a foretaste of gladness"
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
        What should be the more accurate translation in the New Testement? Specifically John 1:1
        I guess that depends on what brand of Christianity you bought into, since it is impossible to know if we have the original script or not.

        NORM
        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
          What should be the more accurate translation in the New Testement? Specifically John 1:1

          The Word of God

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

          The Logos of God

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

          Is Word or Logos a better description of the nature of the Christ?

          Not interested in debating just wanting to see what other people feel/think.
          "Logos" is a transliteration, not a translation. "Word" does not cover the entire semantic range of "logos," but that's unavoidable in translation. As all three major branches of Christianity generally translate "logos" as "word" (Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox) here, I consider it to be acceptable.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
            What should be the more accurate translation in the New Testement? Specifically John 1:1

            The Word of God

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

            The Logos of God

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

            Is Word or Logos a better description of the nature of the Christ?

            Not interested in debating just wanting to see what other people feel/think.
            That notion was invented to explain the ridiculous Trinity concept that Constantine forced down Christianity's throat for his own self-aggrandizement.

            Bishop Spong makes that clear in this clip.

            That belief has led to modern Christians on the right to read their bible literally and IMO, stupidly.



            Regards
            DL

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gnostic Bishop View Post
              That notion was invented to explain the ridiculous Trinity concept that Constantine forced down Christianity's throat for his own self-aggrandizement.
              Constantine was not the originator of the concept of the Trinity. That ascribes far too much theological sophistication to Constantine. The simple fact that he was emperor at the time when the orthodox Trinitarian doctrine was being formalized does not make him responsible for it.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gnostic bishop View Post
                that notion was invented to explain the ridiculous trinity concept that constantine forced down christianity's throat for his own self-aggrandizement.

                Bishop spong makes that clear in this clip.

                That belief has led to modern christians on the right to read their bible literally and imo, stupidly.



                regards
                dl
                spong????!!!!!!

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]2553[/ATTACH]
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  Constantine was not the originator of the concept of the Trinity. That ascribes far too much theological sophistication to Constantine. The simple fact that he was emperor at the time when the orthodox Trinitarian doctrine was being formalized does not make him responsible for it.
                  Can we adopt you?
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Can we adopt you?
                    Is he house broken?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Is he house broken?
                      I've broken some houses; does that count?

                      Back on topic, though, my only problem with translating λόγος as "word" is that it doesn't really capture the lexical range of the Greek. The word λόγος has connotations which are not addressed by the English "word." The English "word" doesn't carry the same connotations of "logic" or "reason" which are expressed by λόγος, and the English "word" is applicable to numerous different communicative symbols, while λόγος tends to specifically connote the spoken word (as opposed to, say, γραφος which indicates the written word).
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        I've broken some houses; does that count?
                        As long as you no longer pee on the carpet.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          As long as you no longer pee on the carpet.
                          Nah, I stopped doing that YEARS ago.

                          Now, I only pee on tile floors.
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            Nah, I stopped doing that YEARS ago.

                            Now, I only pee on tile floors.

                            Hehe, at least that is a positive step.
                            Last edited by seer; 11-06-2014, 02:12 PM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here is an interesting take:

                              It is to be hoped that these remarks on the relation between God and truth will be seen as pertinent to the discussion of logic. In any case, the subject of logic can be more clearly introduced by one more Scriptural reference. The well-known prologue to John’s Gospel may be paraphrased, “In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God.... In logic was life and the life was the light of men...”

                              ...Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic.

                              That Logic is the light of men is a proposition that could well introduce the section after next on the relation of logic to man. But the thought that Logic is God will bring us to the conclusion of the present section. Not only do the followers of Bernard entertain suspicions about logic, but also even more systematic theologians are wary of any proposal that would make an abstract principle superior to God. The present argument, in consonance with both Philo and Charnock, does not do so. The law of contradiction is not to betaken as an axiom prior to or independent of God. The law is God thinking.

                              For this reason also the law of contradiction is not subsequent to God. If one should say that logic is dependent on God’s thinking, it is dependent only in the sense that it is the characteristic of God’s thinking. It is not subsequent temporally, for God is eternal and there was never a time when God existed without thinking logically. One must not suppose that God’s will existed as an inert substance before he willed to think.

                              As there is no temporal priority, so also there is no logical or analytical priority. Not only was Logic the beginning, but Logic was God. If this unusual translation of John’s Prologue still disturbs someone, he might yet allow that God is his thinking. God is not a passive or potential substratum; he is actuality or activity. This is the philosophical terminology to express the Biblical idea that God is a living God. Hence logic is to be considered as the activity of God’s willing.
                              http://www.trinityfoundation.org/jou....uliPXuVq.dpuf
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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