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Ontological Argument?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    So, you don't think that the laws of logic can be universal and immutable unless my concept of Yggdrasil represents an actual, existing world tree which connects the nine worlds?
    No, I'm asking you - how can the laws of logic be universal and immutable in your view. You don't have to answer me with a question.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No, I'm asking you - how can the laws of logic be universal and immutable in your view. You don't have to answer me with a question.
      Oh, gotcha. I misunderstood your meaning. Sorry about that!

      The laws of logic are immutable and universal axiomatically. They define what we mean when we say that something "is."
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
        Because I do not think that the mere ability to hold a concept is a good definition for that concept's existence. Literally everything which can be thought to exist would actually exist.. On Platonism, if I can conceptualize the world tree, Yggdrasil, then that conception is only possible because some perfect abstract of Yggdrasil actually exists.
        Doesn't the typical workaround for this involve the use of possible worlds and actual worlds? Are you familiar with Craig's treatment of Plantinga's take on the Ontological argument?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
          The laws of logic are immutable and universal axiomatically. They define what we mean when we say that something "is."
          Ok, but how can you conclude that they immutable and universal from your limited experience? An axiom is a self-evident truth, how is it self-evident that the laws of logic are immutable and universal - based on our finite understanding?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Ok, but how can you conclude that they immutable and universal from your limited experience? An axiom is a self-evident truth, how is it self-evident that the laws of logic are immutable and universal - based on our finite understanding?
            That's rather the point of axiomatics. They aren't a conclusion. They are an assumption based upon common agreement with the implicit recognition that they have not been proven.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              They are an assumption based upon common agreement with the implicit recognition that they have not been proven.
              Well I can see why we would assume that the laws of logic work in our limited experience, but not why we can assume that they are immutable and universal. Wouldn't the Realist or Theist be in a better position to make that claim? Just thinking out loud.
              Last edited by seer; 10-31-2014, 11:32 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Well I can see why we would assume that the laws of logic work in our limited experience, but not why we can assume that they are immutable and universal. Wouldn't the Realist or Theist be in a better position to make that claim? Just thinking out loud.
                Why would they be? Whether a person is a Platonist or a nominalist, the universality and immutability of the laws of logic are still axiomatic.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  Why would they be? Whether a person is a Platonist or a nominalist, the universality and immutability of the laws of logic are still axiomatic.
                  I guess I'm trying to plumb your beliefs. In the other thread you said you believe in actual infinities. Would a Nominalist believe in actual infinities? I thought numbers and such were not real.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Jumping off another thread - I'm not sure where the fault in the Ontological Argument is:
                    The fault is here: Had Anselm known about modern biology he would probably have said that the mind is a dynamical configuration on a real physical system and so cannot exist separately. Therefore your God is you. You and God are precisely what your brain is doing.

                    When you realise this you will quickly discover that all sorts of theological problems are solved.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      Therefore your God is you. You and God are precisely what your brain is doing.

                      When you realise this you will quickly discover that all sorts of theological problems are solved.
                      How unoriginal...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I guess I'm trying to plumb your beliefs. In the other thread you said you believe in actual infinities. Would a Nominalist believe in actual infinities? I thought numbers and such were not real.
                        When I say that I believe in "actual infinities," I mean that I believe infinity is a quantity which can describe an actual set of entities. For example, if I said that I believe in "actual fives," I mean that I believe it is actually possible to have a set of five real objects. I do not mean that five exists as an entity unto itself. Similarly, when I say that I believe in "actual infinities," I mean that I believe it is actually possible to have an infinite set of real objects.
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          How unoriginal...
                          It would be fascinating to put the great minds from the past through a modern university science course and see what they are really capable of. In reality, we have to stand on their shoulders not kiss their feet.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            When I say that I believe in "actual infinities," I mean that I believe infinity is a quantity which can describe an actual set of entities. For example, if I said that I believe in "actual fives," I mean that I believe it is actually possible to have a set of five real objects. I do not mean that five exists as an entity unto itself. Similarly, when I say that I believe in "actual infinities," I mean that I believe it is actually possible to have an infinite set of real objects.
                            Ok, I get it, thanks...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              “For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.” – Charles Bukowski
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                "In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence." - some guy on the internet

                                Comment

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