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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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A Plea for Understanding

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    the dogma being discussed is revealed religous dogma. my claim that there is no "right dogma" isn't an authoritative claim. religion has undeserved credibility because too many people see Islam and Mormonism as authoritative. they're not. which is why limbo and sharia law are today laughed at as archaic.
    Well whag, in a large part of the world (and getting larger) sharia law is not being laughed at. And, so your claim about right dogma isn't authoritative - then how is it meaningful? It is simply an opinion relative to your preset culture?

    Leave a comment:


  • firstfloor
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Don't forget, folks, this is firstfloor you are 'talking" to.
    Hello Jedidiah,
    I hope that you and yours are all fit and well. As you see I am doing what little I can to bring enlightenment to the Christians. They are a stubborn lot mainly because they think everyone except them is being stubborn. It is a Gordian knot if every there was one.

    Leave a comment:


  • firstfloor
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Where did God lie to Adam? Did you know you were grown up once your dad cursed you to die?
    The young and innocent of the clan are protected by the knowledgeable elders. It is a protective white lie. It goes like this:

    for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die……And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil………….and the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

    If you want to understand the story itself it is no good to read into it bits and pieces of theology from other books.

    The driving out of the garden is really saying that it is impossible to return to ones innocent youth now that you know you are mortal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Don't forget, folks, this is firstfloor you are 'talking" to.

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.
    Obviously we do not believe in the same God.

    "God is not a man, that he should lie; . . ." -- Numbers 23:19.
    " . . . God, that cannot lie, . . . " -- Titus 1:2.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yet we all rely on knowledge from others. Parent, teachers, and yes clergy...
    parents, teachers, and clergy can relay good info, but it's best to rely on one's wetware rather than figures who too often have no grasp of epistemology. parents and clerics are too happy to teach a kindergarten view of teleology, complete with noahic deluge and demons having children with humans.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    You claim that having the right dogma isn't important. And that it doesn't exist. But those claims in themselves are dogma, your dogma.
    the dogma being discussed is revealed religous dogma. my claim that there is no "right dogma" isn't an authoritative claim. religion has undeserved credibility because too many people see Islam and Mormonism as authoritative. they're not. which is why limbo and sharia law are today laughed at as archaic.

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnnyP
    replied
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.
    Where did God lie to Adam? Did you know you were grown up once your dad cursed you to die?

    Leave a comment:


  • firstfloor
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.
    God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.
    He won't give you a real reason for either. He's just a

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    The abundant errors in Christianity all flow from a misunderstanding of Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 because they have emphasised disobedience but missed the necessity of it.
    God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall. The whole of Christianity is based on a failed hypothesis, hence the muddle that you referred to.
    Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    or people on tweb at all. the point is, a healthy mind has the resources to patch together a workable mechanism for interpreting reality. by healthy mind, I mean one with no handicaps and sufficient intelligence to grasp basic epistemelogy.
    Yet we all rely on knowledge from others. Parent, teachers, and yes clergy... You claim that having the right dogma isn't important. And that it doesn't exist. But those claims in themselves are dogma, your dogma.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    or scientists, or people on Tweb named whag...
    or people on tweb at all. the point is, a healthy mind has the resources to patch together a workable mechanism for interpreting reality. by healthy mind, I mean one with no handicaps and sufficient intelligence to grasp basic epistemelogy.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
    Welcome!



    Learning the meaning of Scripture takes time and effort to study it. While a new Christians can easily learn the basics, there is depth to the Bible that can take a lifetime to learn.
    one also has to consider some human beings' limited understanding. j Vernon McGee knew much about the Bible. he studied it his entire lifetime, but was also hampered by severe epistemelogical deficits in his thinking. for instance , he believed evolution was a lie from satan. in another category, you have Christians who sincerely believe the basics of christianity but aren't intelligent enough to understand the bible in depth. the hovinds and hams for instance.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    no priests and clerics needed.
    or scientists, or people on Tweb named whag...

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
    This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

    If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections? History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth? How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?

    If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?

    Thank you for your time,
    Shane
    Hi Shane. I think you're concerned about the wrong thing. The question shouldn't be "what's the right dogma to believe?" but "why would god give us such a complicated dataset?" he could only give us that dataset--emotions, experiences, epistemology--if he trusts we have the capacity to process that data into a worldview that allows you cope with life.

    you should embrace that fact rather than being bothered by fundamentalist binary thinking. the right dogma isn't important. it doesnt exist. you are a primate with many options and you have the gift of forming your own view by interpreting the big dataset. no priests and clerics needed.

    Leave a comment:

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