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A Plea for Understanding

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  • firstfloor
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Nah, he left a heavenly abode and God gave them mortal flesh so they could die, it wasn't a gift, it was part of the curse.
    Adam was never immortal –
    “then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.”
    He was preventing from becoming immortal –
    “Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever - ”

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    what? your premise that an immaterial soul relates to freedom of thought is a non sequitur. youre saying absent the immaterial soul, there is no freedom of thought. what are you talking about? moreover, what's the practical applicability of it? I gave you a concrete example of christian theist who has concluded her sister is possessed when she's actually just mentally ill.
    If there is no ghost in the machine then all you are left with is machine. And I fail to see how your example applies at all. The fact is, in your "material" world there can be no freedom of thought, if you think otherwise please explain.

    also, youre assuming too much about my naturalistic views. I'm between an agnostic/deist, which I find much more practical in dealing with the wreckage of evangelicalism (my mother in law being a small example). I have to reason with that.
    Well it is good to have an open mind. So you think it is possible that men have a soul? A spiritual, non-material, aspect to their nature?
    Last edited by seer; 01-27-2014, 08:23 AM.

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

    Yup, announced it on the Facebook group a while back.
    Wow! That is great brother, good news indeed. Would you mind telling us what put you over the top?
    Last edited by seer; 01-27-2014, 06:37 AM.

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  • JohnnyP
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    JohnnyP, I still do not understand your teleology. when in your view did predation, disease, and calamity start?
    Some sources say first predation can be traced to over 500 million years ago, viruses since the first cells 3.4 billion years ago. I go with scientific findings in other words. Can you define calamity further?

    So as for Genesis 1, my position that the Son was the non-omniscient creator, but he was given foreknowledge to see that his commands given on certain days would bring forth life as intended, even if the actual process took millions or billions of years to complete. And that each day of creation commands were given aren't consecutive, also perhaps millions or billions of years apart.

    Further again, creations of Genesis 2 being in a heavenly realm not on earth don't need to coincide with or even have the same nature as life on earth. For example, fruits of the Garden may be some kind of spiritual substance or actual energy, rather than literal apples or figs.

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  • whag
    replied
    JohnnyP, I still do not understand your teleology. when in your view did predation, disease, and calamity start?

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnnyP
    replied
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    God’s lie is very obvious. The point of the serpent is to explain the lie.
    There's no lie, if someone told you that if you swallow poison that has no antidote, in that day you will die, the process of death has already started even if it takes days for it to kill you. You are as good as dead the day you swallow it. So you are reading it too literally.

    The Serpent twisted the truth. If you say "The various curses serve to explain the realities of life" are you claiming that the Serpent lost his childhood innocence as well?

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    The fact that the tree of knowledge is the centrepiece of the garden is very significant.
    A hot stove as the centerpiece in my kitchen isn't an invitation to lay your hand on it.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Adam has to eat it or there is no story but he eats it when he is ready to eat it.
    He may not have even known he was eating it, he may have thought it was from the Tree of Life or another tree. Again the problem is he didn't check it out with God first.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    If Adam had refused to eat from the tree of knowledge; if he had remained like an innocent child, he would still be there alone with God and Eve and we would not exist.
    Speculation, we don't know what would happen. Anyway I believe other humans evolved in Genesis 1 so we may still exist, unless you can trace your lineage back to Adam.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Adam leaves the garden as a mortal god and God demonstrates his satisfaction by giving them garments.
    Nah, he left a heavenly abode and God gave them mortal flesh so they could die, it wasn't a gift, it was part of the curse.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    BTW, what I mean by ‘growing up’ is the awakening of sexuality in the young adults – that is the symbolic meaning of the serpent.
    What do the Serpent's curses have to do with it symbolizing sexuality?

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    We see that Adam does not know Eve until he leaves the garden.
    When they were given coats of flesh and mortal bodies they had sex as mortals do.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Another interesting detail is that while ‘good and evil’ is a traditional translation, it can mean ‘everything’ so there is not necessarily a moral concept attached to it.
    Your premise that disobeying God was just part of growing up and is not a bad thing pretty much ignores the rest of the Bible that shows disobeying God is a bad thing.

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    From what I read, the age of the Torah is not known but only that the last major revisions to it were made after 539 BCE. As far as I can tell the concepts of ‘the fall’ and ‘original sin’ comes out of Christian theology and does not exist in the Jewish or Gnostic traditions.
    Those concepts exist in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. From a Jewish source:
    He was a serpent, an evil cunning creature, who came and whispered persuasive, sinful thoughts to Adam and Chava. Left to their own, it would never have occurred to them to partake of the Tree which Hashem had forbidden. -Rabbi Eliyahu Hoffmann

    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Back to my question, do you accept that billions of years of predation, disease, and calamity antedated the special creation in Eden? Where it implies Adam named the species, what do you read that as? Weren't most species already scattered about across the earth?
    No Genesis 2 initiates around Day 4 of Genesis 1 in my view in a heavenly realm, before higher animal life existed on earth. The creatures made to be helpers to Adam in Genesis 2 are cherubim, not earthly animals evolved in Genesis 1. Not that cherubim of Ezekiel are the very same of Genesis, but note similarities of their natures:

    Ezekiel 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

    Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle (OX), and to the fowl of the air (EAGLE), and to every beast of the field (LION); but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

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  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Where it implies sun, moon, stars are created 4th day I read it as non-literal symbolism to Genesis 2, sun = Tree of Life, moon = Tree of Knowledge, stars = Sons of God including Adam and cherubim to be his helpers (Genesis 2:18+). So they are direct creation by God, whereas the rest of Genesis 1 describes evolution of animals and other humans as described today.
    Back to my question, do you accept that billions of years of predation, disease, and calamity antedated the special creation in Eden?

    Where it implies Adam named the species, what do you read that as? Weren't most species already scattered about across the earth?

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnnyP
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    are you saying that, until Eden, the earth and biosphere were as earth scientists and biologists describe it today? do you acknowledge that predation, disease, and calamity existed for eons prior to Eden? I assume you think adam is separate from the animal kingdom.
    Where it implies sun, moon, stars are created 4th day I read it as non-literal symbolism to Genesis 2, sun = Tree of Life, moon = Tree of Knowledge, stars = Sons of God including Adam and cherubim to be his helpers (Genesis 2:18+). So they are direct creation by God, whereas the rest of Genesis 1 describes evolution of animals and other humans as described today.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    That would be me. ^^



    Then I misread, it seemed as if you implied that because he was an evolutionist, that therefore he neither believed in God nor an immaterial soul.



    Yup, announced it on the Facebook group a while back.
    hi Leonhard. congrats on your life change. what route did you ultimately choose, if any at all?

    eta: to clarify, I mean what type of Christianity did you choose?
    Last edited by whag; 01-26-2014, 06:17 PM.

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  • Leonhard
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    This can't be our old friend Leonhard can it?
    That would be me. ^^

    I agree that you can be both a Christian/Theist and an evolutionist - that is why I qualified it with: You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right?
    Then I misread, it seemed as if you implied that because he was an evolutionist, that therefore he neither believed in God nor an immaterial soul.

    BTW - did I read you right - you are a Christian now?
    Yup, announced it on the Facebook group a while back.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    What? That is not an answer. Is our thought process biologically determined in your worldview, yes or no? If no, how is that possible. If yes, what is all this nonsense about "free thought?"
    what? your premise that an immaterial soul relates to freedom of thought is a non sequitur. youre saying absent the immaterial soul, there is no freedom of thought. what are you talking about? moreover, what's the practical applicability of it? I gave you a concrete example of christian theist who has concluded her sister is possessed when she's actually just mentally ill.

    also, youre assuming too much about my naturalistic views. I'm between an agnostic/deist, which I find much more practical in dealing with the wreckage of evangelicalism (my mother in law being a small example). I have to reason with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Seer, don't equate assent to the findings of evolutionary biology with atheism. I am a Christian, and I do think that all life evolved from a common ancestor.
    This can't be our old friend Leonhard can it? I agree that you can be both a Christian/Theist and an evolutionist - that is why I qualified it with: You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right? BTW - did I read you right - you are a Christian now?
    Last edited by seer; 01-26-2014, 11:19 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    my christian mother in law has come to the conclusion her sister is possessed by a demon. she was completely free to conclude this. your question makes no sense to me if you're arguing about practical applicability of worldview.
    What? That is not an answer. Is our thought process biologically determined in your worldview, yes or no? If no, how is that possible. If yes, what is all this nonsense about "free thought?"

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    My beliefs are kind of confusing, but they are that Genesis 1 is about evolution of life on earth, including other humans. And Genesis 2 is about direct creation of Adam as a complete man being a firsfruits in Heaven, around the 4th day of Genesis 1.
    are you saying that, until Eden, the earth and biosphere were as earth scientists and biologists describe it today? do you acknowledge that predation, disease, and calamity existed for eons prior to Eden? I assume you think adam is separate from the animal kingdom.

    Leave a comment:


  • whag
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Whag, I want to flesh out this idea of freedom of thought a bit more. You are an evolutionist correct? You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right? How can free thought exist in your world view? Are we not then biologically determined in how we respond to stimuli and think or come to our conclusions? Where is the freedom in that?
    my christian mother in law has come to the conclusion her sister is possessed by a demon. she was completely free to conclude this. your question makes no sense to me if you're arguing about practical applicability of worldview.

    Leave a comment:

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