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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #31
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    Did this take place after Neanderthals and Cro-Mags? We have good evidence they, um, died. As well as their ancestors before that.
    My beliefs are kind of confusing, but they are that Genesis 1 is about evolution of life on earth, including other humans. And Genesis 2 is about direct creation of Adam as a complete man being a firsfruits in Heaven, around the 4th day of Genesis 1.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
      There is no white lie, in that day they were as good as dead, and as far as we know, cast from the Garden away from the Tree of Life and their cells started dying. I don't understand why you equate disobedience with growing up, where most of us consider that following the rules is a sign of maturity. An immature person tries to steal money from his employer, for example. And I don't recall that my dad ever cursed me for growing in maturity, as Adam was cursed. Seems you are skipping over that and focusing on the giving of skins as some kind of Bar/Bat Mitzvah gift.
      God’s lie is very obvious. The point of the serpent is to explain the lie. The fact that the tree of knowledge is the centrepiece of the garden is very significant. Adam has to eat it or there is no story but he eats it when he is ready to eat it. If Adam had refused to eat from the tree of knowledge; if he had remained like an innocent child, he would still be there alone with God and Eve and we would not exist. The various curses serve to explain the realities of life. The people telling this story have known nothing but mortality but they realise their power over nature; they are imagining how it all began. Adam leaves the garden as a mortal god and God demonstrates his satisfaction by giving them garments.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

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      • #33
        BTW, what I mean by ‘growing up’ is the awakening of sexuality in the young adults – that is the symbolic meaning of the serpent. We see that Adam does not know Eve until he leaves the garden. Another interesting detail is that while ‘good and evil’ is a traditional translation, it can mean ‘everything’ so there is not necessarily a moral concept attached to it.
        From what I read, the age of the Torah is not known but only that the last major revisions to it were made after 539 BCE. As far as I can tell the concepts of ‘the fall’ and ‘original sin’ comes out of Christian theology and does not exist in the Jewish or Gnostic traditions.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          no, freedom of thought is all that matters. sharia ensures Islam won't be progressive or evolve. ditto dopey creationism.
          Whag, I want to flesh out this idea of freedom of thought a bit more. You are an evolutionist correct? You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right? How can free thought exist in your world view? Are we not then biologically determined in how we respond to stimuli and think or come to our conclusions? Where is the freedom in that?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You are an evolutionist correct? You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right?
            Seer, don't equate assent to the findings of evolutionary biology with atheism. I am a Christian, and I do think that all life evolved from a common ancestor.
            Last edited by Leonhard; 01-26-2014, 09:36 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Seer, don't equate assent to the findings of evolutionary biology with atheism. I am not a Christian, and I do think that all life evolved from a common ancestor.
              Extra not? Or am I missing something?
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #37
                Extra not, I originally wrote 'not an atheist' and decided to make it more specific than being an a-atheist, so I wrote Christian and forgot to remove the not. Thanks for the heads up.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Whag, I want to flesh out this idea of freedom of thought a bit more. You are an evolutionist correct? You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right? How can free thought exist in your world view? Are we not then biologically determined in how we respond to stimuli and think or come to our conclusions? Where is the freedom in that?
                  my christian mother in law has come to the conclusion her sister is possessed by a demon. she was completely free to conclude this. your question makes no sense to me if you're arguing about practical applicability of worldview.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    My beliefs are kind of confusing, but they are that Genesis 1 is about evolution of life on earth, including other humans. And Genesis 2 is about direct creation of Adam as a complete man being a firsfruits in Heaven, around the 4th day of Genesis 1.
                    are you saying that, until Eden, the earth and biosphere were as earth scientists and biologists describe it today? do you acknowledge that predation, disease, and calamity existed for eons prior to Eden? I assume you think adam is separate from the animal kingdom.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      my christian mother in law has come to the conclusion her sister is possessed by a demon. she was completely free to conclude this. your question makes no sense to me if you're arguing about practical applicability of worldview.
                      What? That is not an answer. Is our thought process biologically determined in your worldview, yes or no? If no, how is that possible. If yes, what is all this nonsense about "free thought?"
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Seer, don't equate assent to the findings of evolutionary biology with atheism. I am a Christian, and I do think that all life evolved from a common ancestor.
                        This can't be our old friend Leonhard can it? I agree that you can be both a Christian/Theist and an evolutionist - that is why I qualified it with: You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right? BTW - did I read you right - you are a Christian now?
                        Last edited by seer; 01-26-2014, 11:19 AM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          What? That is not an answer. Is our thought process biologically determined in your worldview, yes or no? If no, how is that possible. If yes, what is all this nonsense about "free thought?"
                          what? your premise that an immaterial soul relates to freedom of thought is a non sequitur. youre saying absent the immaterial soul, there is no freedom of thought. what are you talking about? moreover, what's the practical applicability of it? I gave you a concrete example of christian theist who has concluded her sister is possessed when she's actually just mentally ill.

                          also, youre assuming too much about my naturalistic views. I'm between an agnostic/deist, which I find much more practical in dealing with the wreckage of evangelicalism (my mother in law being a small example). I have to reason with that.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            This can't be our old friend Leonhard can it?
                            That would be me. ^^

                            I agree that you can be both a Christian/Theist and an evolutionist - that is why I qualified it with: You don't believe in a God or an immaterial soul - right?
                            Then I misread, it seemed as if you implied that because he was an evolutionist, that therefore he neither believed in God nor an immaterial soul.

                            BTW - did I read you right - you are a Christian now?
                            Yup, announced it on the Facebook group a while back.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              That would be me. ^^



                              Then I misread, it seemed as if you implied that because he was an evolutionist, that therefore he neither believed in God nor an immaterial soul.



                              Yup, announced it on the Facebook group a while back.
                              hi Leonhard. congrats on your life change. what route did you ultimately choose, if any at all?

                              eta: to clarify, I mean what type of Christianity did you choose?
                              Last edited by whag; 01-26-2014, 06:17 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by whag View Post
                                are you saying that, until Eden, the earth and biosphere were as earth scientists and biologists describe it today? do you acknowledge that predation, disease, and calamity existed for eons prior to Eden? I assume you think adam is separate from the animal kingdom.
                                Where it implies sun, moon, stars are created 4th day I read it as non-literal symbolism to Genesis 2, sun = Tree of Life, moon = Tree of Knowledge, stars = Sons of God including Adam and cherubim to be his helpers (Genesis 2:18+). So they are direct creation by God, whereas the rest of Genesis 1 describes evolution of animals and other humans as described today.

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