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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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A Plea for Understanding

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  • #16
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.
    Where did God lie to Adam? Did you know you were grown up once your dad cursed you to die?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Yet we all rely on knowledge from others. Parent, teachers, and yes clergy...
      parents, teachers, and clergy can relay good info, but it's best to rely on one's wetware rather than figures who too often have no grasp of epistemology. parents and clerics are too happy to teach a kindergarten view of teleology, complete with noahic deluge and demons having children with humans.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      You claim that having the right dogma isn't important. And that it doesn't exist. But those claims in themselves are dogma, your dogma.
      the dogma being discussed is revealed religous dogma. my claim that there is no "right dogma" isn't an authoritative claim. religion has undeserved credibility because too many people see Islam and Mormonism as authoritative. they're not. which is why limbo and sharia law are today laughed at as archaic.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.
        Obviously we do not believe in the same God.

        "God is not a man, that he should lie; . . ." -- Numbers 23:19.
        " . . . God, that cannot lie, . . . " -- Titus 1:2.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • #19
          Don't forget, folks, this is firstfloor you are 'talking" to.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
            Where did God lie to Adam? Did you know you were grown up once your dad cursed you to die?
            The young and innocent of the clan are protected by the knowledgeable elders. It is a protective white lie. It goes like this:

            for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die……And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil………….and the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

            If you want to understand the story itself it is no good to read into it bits and pieces of theology from other books.

            The driving out of the garden is really saying that it is impossible to return to ones innocent youth now that you know you are mortal.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              Don't forget, folks, this is firstfloor you are 'talking" to.
              Hello Jedidiah,
              I hope that you and yours are all fit and well. As you see I am doing what little I can to bring enlightenment to the Christians. They are a stubborn lot mainly because they think everyone except them is being stubborn. It is a Gordian knot if every there was one.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                the dogma being discussed is revealed religous dogma. my claim that there is no "right dogma" isn't an authoritative claim. religion has undeserved credibility because too many people see Islam and Mormonism as authoritative. they're not. which is why limbo and sharia law are today laughed at as archaic.
                Well whag, in a large part of the world (and getting larger) sharia law is not being laughed at. And, so your claim about right dogma isn't authoritative - then how is it meaningful? It is simply an opinion relative to your preset culture?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well whag, in a large part of the world (and getting larger) sharia law is not being laughed at.

                  The civilized and educated population laugh. That sharia law isn't laughed at by Muslims actually cements my point about the danger of forming beliefs based on revealed religion, which is too often seen as "authoritative."


                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  And, so your claim about right dogma isn't authoritative - then how is it meaningful? It is simply an opinion relative to your preset culture?
                  Yes! Unlike Muslims, Mormons, and Christians, I offered my opinion and he can do what he want with it. Sharia law exemplifies why skepticism is warranted. Skepticism easily exposes the dubiousness of revealed religious dogma, Islamic or otherwise.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    The civilized and educated population laugh. That sharia law isn't laughed at by Muslims actually cements my point about the danger of forming beliefs based on revealed religion, which is too often seen as "authoritative."
                    Well Islam is no joking matter. And you can mock them all you want but their authoritative belief system may in fact offer them a better survival advantage than us "freethinking" westerners. And in the end survival is all that matters - correct?


                    Yes! Unlike Muslims, Mormons, and Christians, I offered my opinion and he can do what he want with it. Sharia law exemplifies why skepticism is warranted. Skepticism easily exposes the dubiousness of revealed religious dogma, Islamic or otherwise.
                    Yes what? Your opinion is only relative to your preset culture? How is that meaningful?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Well Islam is no joking matter. And you can mock them all you want but their authoritative belief system may in fact offer them a better survival advantage than us "freethinking" westerners. And in the end survival is all that matters - correct?
                      no, freedom of thought is all that matters. sharia ensures Islam won't be progressive or evolve. ditto dopey creationism.

                      mocking isn't the same as expressed skepticism of revealed religion.




                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      what? Your opinion is only relative to your preset culture? How is that meaningful?
                      it could be meaningful if it convinces the OP to explore his doubt and form his own worldview with the dataset he's been given. too many religionists raise their children without giving them this freedom.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        no, freedom of thought is all that matters. sharia ensures Islam won't be progressive or evolve. ditto dopey creationism.

                        mocking isn't the same as expressed skepticism of revealed religion.
                        No, as far as I can tell survival is all that matters. Freedom of thought is only relevant if it helps survival. But if a revealed religion helps with unit cohesion and strength of purpose then that may well offer a better survival advantage.


                        it could be meaningful if it convinces the OP to explore his doubt and form his own worldview with the dataset he's been given. too many religionists raise their children without giving them this freedom.
                        Well the godless left does their share of indoctrination too. Just look at College campuses, speech codes and the like... But in the bigger picture I don't see how your culturally induced opinion is meaningful in any real sense. I mean if you grew up in the Antebellum South you would probably be a pro-slavery racist.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No, as far as I can tell survival is all that matters. Freedom of thought is only relevant if it helps survival. But if a revealed religion helps with unit cohesion and strength of purpose then that may well offer a better survival advantage.
                          You should probably reconcile that with your belief in a jealous God. the last I heard, cheating on him causes crotch rot. if pagan theism forms group purpose and social cohesion, one wonders why in the Bible it's frowned upon as an infidelity. are these not conflicting views of god invention?




                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          the godless left does their share of indoctrination too. Just look at College campuses, speech codes and the like... But in the bigger picture I don't see how your culturally induced opinion is meaningful in any real sense. I mean if you grew up in the Antebellum South you would probably be a pro-slavery racist.
                          you can't find it meaningful, seer. thats okay. the OP might be more open-minded or mentally prepared for an complete reevaluation of what religion means to him than you are. right now, his confusion looks pretty normal for a person who might've been exposed to fundamentalist religion. knowing the pedagogical flaws that unfortunately exist in some Christian cultures (such as the Amish, for example, or the Purpose-Drivenists), surely my claim that there is no "right" dogma is a good way to start one's epistemelogical journey. it couldn't be any worse than what Rick Warren and the Amish are doing to the flock.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            You should probably reconcile that with your belief in a jealous God. the last I heard, cheating on him causes crotch rot. if pagan theism forms group purpose and social cohesion, one wonders why in the Bible it's frowned upon as an infidelity. are these not conflicting views of god invention?
                            I'm not sure what your point is. My point is that in a godless universe all such moral opinions, like yours, are relative. And meaningless - the only thing that is meaningful would be survival. And if following a rigid set of religious principles helps with survival then that is what counts.





                            you can't find it meaningful, seer. thats okay. the OP might be more open-minded or mentally prepared for an complete reevaluation of what religion means to him than you are. right now, his confusion looks pretty normal for a person who might've been exposed to fundamentalist religion. knowing the pedagogical flaws that unfortunately exist in some Christian cultures (such as the Amish, for example, or the Purpose-Drivenists), surely my claim that there is no "right" dogma is a good way to start one's epistemelogical journey. it couldn't be any worse than what Rick Warren and the Amish are doing to the flock.
                            It is not about what I find meaningful whag, it is about what is rational. The opinion that you are spouting today would be no more objectively correct or valid than the opinion that you would have spouted if you were a white land owner in the Antebellum South. Even though said opinions would have probably been diametrically opposed.
                            Last edited by seer; 01-26-2014, 05:45 AM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              The young and innocent of the clan are protected by the knowledgeable elders. It is a protective white lie. It goes like this:

                              for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die……And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil………….and the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

                              If you want to understand the story itself it is no good to read into it bits and pieces of theology from other books.

                              The driving out of the garden is really saying that it is impossible to return to ones innocent youth now that you know you are mortal.
                              There is no white lie, in that day they were as good as dead, and as far as we know, cast from the Garden away from the Tree of Life and their cells started dying.

                              I don't understand why you equate disobedience with growing up, where most of us consider that following the rules is a sign of maturity. An immature person tries to steal money from his employer, for example.

                              And I don't recall that my dad ever cursed me for growing in maturity, as Adam was cursed. Seems you are skipping over that and focusing on the giving of skins as some kind of Bar/Bat Mitzvah gift.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                                There is no white lie, in that day they were as good as dead, and as far as we know, cast from the Garden away from the Tree of Life and their cells started dying.
                                Did this take place after Neanderthals and Cro-Mags? We have good evidence they, um, died. As well as their ancestors before that.

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