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A Plea for Understanding

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  • A Plea for Understanding

    This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

    If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections? History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth? How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?

    If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?

    Thank you for your time,
    Shane

  • #2
    Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
    This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

    If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections?
    There is no worldview that has no serious objections. That's where some humility (the real kind, not the public spectacle kind) helps.

    History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth?
    A handful of people still disagree on whether the earth is flat. Does that mean we'll never know the truth in that regard?

    How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?
    Objective truth is not dependent on opinion.

    If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture,
    The Holy Spirit doesn't instruct believers on the true meaning of scripture. God also does not usually shoot telepathic messages into people's brains or talk to them while they're doing the dishes. This confusion arises because a lot of Christians confuse their own voice with the voice of God.

    why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?
    Humans are not purely, or even primarily rational creatures, nor do we all have access to the same data or even the same senses. Different interpretations are bound to arise on pretty much everything.

    There's no need to panic about not being able to know or be sure about everything. None of us do. Best you can do is do the best you can.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
      This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

      Hi Shane,

      If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections?
      Actually the Christian world view as proven cultural advantages.
      History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth?
      Men can be wrong and more often than not are. God cannot be wrong. Christianity from Judaism is an historical faith. Our years being called A.D. Anno Domini meaning "year of our Lord." And B.C., Before Christ. Even after replacement of A.D. with C.E. Current Era and B.C. with B.C.E. Before Current Era. The calendar years such as 2014 stays the same.


      How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?
      On the contrary there is a truth about it. There are disagreements on it.

      If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?
      Christians should agree. Genuine Christian do in fact agree on essentials of the faith. And the secondary issues in that those disagreements are not matters of being genuine Christian.

      The Apostle Paul wrote on this issue to the Corinthian church, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ." -- Corinthians 1:10.

      Do you have a specific question or objection of note?
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
        This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

        If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections? History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth? How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?
        (A) Disagreement on something doesn't mean that there is no truth of the matter.

        (B) I suggest looking at something like James Sire's writings on worldviews ('The Universe Next Door'); or Glen Miller's Christian Think Tank website. What worldview is most internally consistent; most realistically liveable; and best explains the most observable facts (No worldview does all of these perfectly, IMHO, so it's a question of which covers the most the best.)

        Originally posted by Shaney777
        If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?

        Thank you for your time,
        Shane

        (1) It's possible that not every (self-declared) Christian is listening obediently to the Holy Spirit all of the time. Hence they may differ.

        (2) I think the vast majority of Christians agree substantially on the basics of salvation. Perhaps the differences are mostly about peripheral issues...?

        (3) From your personal reading of the Bible, how does one 'get saved'?
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
          This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.
          Welcome!

          If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections?
          What makes Christianity stand out is that it stands or falls of its historical claims. No other religion has anywhere near the historical evidence that Christianity has.

          History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth? How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?
          When two very intelligent people disagree on a great number of things, a good starting point is to look at which things they agree on and build from there.

          If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?

          Thank you for your time,
          Shane
          Learning the meaning of Scripture takes time and effort to study it. While a new Christians can easily learn the basics, there is depth to the Bible that can take a lifetime to learn.
          Last edited by Soyeong; 01-23-2014, 11:13 PM.
          "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

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          • #6
            Hello Shane,
            Great question.
            The abundant errors in Christianity all flow from a misunderstanding of Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 because they have emphasised disobedience but missed the necessity of it.
            God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall. The whole of Christianity is based on a failed hypothesis, hence the muddle that you referred to.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

            Comment


            • #7
              After Einstein there is no special reference frame, likewise there is no special religion. Most people’s religious beliefs are a matter of no more than latitude and longitude. If you want to understand the world as it is you will have to read and understand science. Too much of religious thinking is old, tired, confusing, tattered and wrong.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Shaney777 View Post
                This is my first post here, and I am just going to throw my main objection to Christianity out there. This is really a call for understanding, though.

                If there really is a "truth" to reality, how is man supposed to sort through the plethora of religious/philosophical information, find the reliable stuff, and develop a worldview that has no serious objections? History's brightest disagree on why humans are here. How can this not mean that we'll never know the truth? How does it not mean that there isn't a truth?

                If the same Holy Spirit instructs believers on the true meanings of scripture, why are there so many sincere Christians with different interpretations of how to gain salvation (the most important thing that could possibly be known)?

                Thank you for your time,
                Shane
                Hi Shane. I think you're concerned about the wrong thing. The question shouldn't be "what's the right dogma to believe?" but "why would god give us such a complicated dataset?" he could only give us that dataset--emotions, experiences, epistemology--if he trusts we have the capacity to process that data into a worldview that allows you cope with life.

                you should embrace that fact rather than being bothered by fundamentalist binary thinking. the right dogma isn't important. it doesnt exist. you are a primate with many options and you have the gift of forming your own view by interpreting the big dataset. no priests and clerics needed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  no priests and clerics needed.
                  or scientists, or people on Tweb named whag...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    Welcome!



                    Learning the meaning of Scripture takes time and effort to study it. While a new Christians can easily learn the basics, there is depth to the Bible that can take a lifetime to learn.
                    one also has to consider some human beings' limited understanding. j Vernon McGee knew much about the Bible. he studied it his entire lifetime, but was also hampered by severe epistemelogical deficits in his thinking. for instance , he believed evolution was a lie from satan. in another category, you have Christians who sincerely believe the basics of christianity but aren't intelligent enough to understand the bible in depth. the hovinds and hams for instance.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      or scientists, or people on Tweb named whag...
                      or people on tweb at all. the point is, a healthy mind has the resources to patch together a workable mechanism for interpreting reality. by healthy mind, I mean one with no handicaps and sufficient intelligence to grasp basic epistemelogy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        or people on tweb at all. the point is, a healthy mind has the resources to patch together a workable mechanism for interpreting reality. by healthy mind, I mean one with no handicaps and sufficient intelligence to grasp basic epistemelogy.
                        Yet we all rely on knowledge from others. Parent, teachers, and yes clergy... You claim that having the right dogma isn't important. And that it doesn't exist. But those claims in themselves are dogma, your dogma.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          The abundant errors in Christianity all flow from a misunderstanding of Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 because they have emphasised disobedience but missed the necessity of it.
                          God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall. The whole of Christianity is based on a failed hypothesis, hence the muddle that you referred to.
                          Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.
                            He won't give you a real reason for either. He's just a

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Please explain how you came to this conclusion. The facts given in the account, God told Adam, ". . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . ." Add to that you want to disallow the NT. Which also needs an explanation.
                              God lies to Adam to protect him while he remains an innocent child. When he matures, he gains godlike knowledge and is given a gift of clothing. It is a story about mortality and about taking on the sometimes harsh responsibilities of adulthood. Adam does not fall, he grows up.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment

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