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Satan's Story

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    I don't have to listen to every Christian that comes along. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, but I haven't been given good Biblical reason to accept either TE, or OEC. In fact, the more I study all subjects related to this, the further I am pushed away from those positions. My authority is Scripture, not the opinions of other Christians. This is going to be my last response to you, as you are obviously a troll.
    The genuinely curious study the moon and analyze its features to understand its origin and history. To people like you, it's merely a light because God said so, created ex nihilo with no substantive history.

    This is but one example of how fundamentalism obliterates epistemology, preferring raw superstition and fear instead. You are a primate made of supernova dust. Deal with it.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      If the question is, do only fundamentalists take Genesis and Job as, in whag's words, "pure recorded history," then my answer is an unequivocal yes. There are parts of Genesis in particular that can be taken as history, but I think it's clear from the context of this thread that the specific parts of Genesis in question are the parts where Satan appears and not the parts discussing Abraham and his descendents.
      That depends on whose definition of "fundamentalist" you are using. In the early 20th century, "fundamentalist" was very similar to "evangelical," but the terms have diverged. As a result, I have reservations about considering myself a "fundamentalist," but I do believe that Genesis 1-11 is historical in its details as well as its overall thrust. As for Job, see below.

      Taking Job as historical also tends to discount the way in which Jews tend to treat the book-- as more like Psalms or Proverbs than Joshua or Kings
      As an evangelical and maybe a fundamentalist, I have no problems saying that the poetry which occupies most of the book is not a verbatim transcript of a conversation. I'm much less willing to assign the framing chapters at the beginning and the end to the realm of fable. It may certainly be interesting to see how various Jews treated various books, but I wouldn't assign controlling weight to their approach.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        I do believe that Genesis 1-11 is historical in its details as well as its overall thrust.
        That doesn't seem to be endorsing the text as pure recorded history. Cultures were well established across the globe prior to 4000 BC, yet Genesis says the origin of the world's cultures is the result of the gods putting a stop to a large-scale architectural project.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          No, I referenced a common apologetic that Christians use to explain why Christianity didn't fizzle out.
          I see, I wouldn't argue that myself since non-eyewitnesses can be adamant about faith to the point of martyrdom.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          one might as well credit Mormons and Muslims for believing that which they did not see. it hardly seems a virtue when people believe weird things apart from directly seeing them take place.
          For example it is said that Giordano Bruno "correctly proposed that the Sun was just another star moving in space, and claimed as well that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. The Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, and he was burned at the stake."

          Scientists also believe or suggest a lot of seemingly weird things without directly seeing them take place. Sometimes right and a virtue, sometimes wrong and maybe not so much.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          if it was a genuine religious misunderstanding, it surely becomes more believable. IOW, Judas cashes in on false prophet of Satan who deserves to die. I get that.

          surely, those explanations seek to minimize the incredulity of Judas' story, interpreting his actions as motivated by genuine religious misunderstanding. Did satan possibly experience a similar misunderstanding that makes the story more believable to you?
          Some suggest that Satan in the Garden thought he was helping recalling the story of Prometheus, but still guilty of hubris and twisting God's Will to conform to his own ideas. A traditional view is that Satan was jealous and wanted to get out of being Adam's servant by causing his downfall. The Quran goes into more detail about that with Satan as Iblis, and I lean more to that interpretation although I don't rule out the first.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          You said Satan tests you like he did with Job, then bow put of further discussion of that vital interaction.
          Here I was just replying to your comment that Job is a myth, where I'm not interested in arguing whether it is or not. My belief and feeling is that Satan tries to lure me away from God when things don't go my way, similar to Job's story.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          and if they succeed in getting you to curse God while you're suffering, what does God do? are they trying to force a divine reaction?
          To me a primary work of Satan/demons now as deceivers and accusers is trying to get humans to reject the idea of God altogether -- "How could a real God do this to me?" -- "If I ditch belief in God I won't feel guilty all the time." -- Etc.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          these demons have the power to read your mind and extend your negative thoughts? I'm not a believer, but when I get a negative thought I go for a brisk walk and counter negative thoughts with positive ones. this seems to me a more rational approach than thinking demons have access to your cognition.

          my mother in law, for example, has gone off the rails with this belief in satan and would be much better off without the burden of believing in demons bent on her destruction. surely you agree this worldview isn't for everybody, yes?
          It may be she's more enchanted and obsessed with the idea that she's special and a target for demons, rather than doing something more productive to combat it, like volunteer work. Doesn't really matter what causes your problem in that regard -- cancer, divorce, demons -- what matters is what you do about it.

          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Usually that involves a heavy amount of speculation. Such as JohnnyP's speculations about Satan the helpmeet. =)
          Not much speculation required, following are created to be helpers in Adam's heavenly realm, which is implied here:
          Genesis 2:18 ...I will make him an help meet for him.

          Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field...

          Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field...

          Not regular animals on earth from Genesis 1, since they were around before humans who evolved after them, my position. But cherubim.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
            I see, I wouldn't argue that myself since non-eyewitnesses can be adamant about faith to the point of martyrdom.



            For example it is said that Giordano Bruno "correctly proposed that the Sun was just another star moving in space, and claimed as well that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. The Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, and he was burned at the stake."

            Scientists also believe or suggest a lot of seemingly weird things without directly seeing them take place. Sometimes right and a virtue, sometimes wrong and maybe not so much.



            Some suggest that Satan in the Garden thought he was helping recalling the story of Prometheus, but still guilty of hubris and twisting God's Will to conform to his own ideas. A traditional view is that Satan was jealous and wanted to get out of being Adam's servant by causing his downfall. The Quran goes into more detail about that with Satan as Iblis, and I lean more to that interpretation although I don't rule out the first.



            Here I was just replying to your comment that Job is a myth, where I'm not interested in arguing whether it is or not. My belief and feeling is that Satan tries to lure me away from God when things don't go my way, similar to Job's story.



            To me a primary work of Satan/demons now as deceivers and accusers is trying to get humans to reject the idea of God altogether -- "How could a real God do this to me?" -- "If I ditch belief in God I won't feel guilty all the time." -- Etc.



            It may be she's more enchanted and obsessed with the idea that she's special and a target for demons, rather than doing something more productive to combat it, like volunteer work. Doesn't really matter what causes your problem in that regard -- cancer, divorce, demons -- what matters is what you do about it.



            Not much speculation required, following are created to be helpers in Adam's heavenly realm, which is implied here:

            Not regular animals on earth from Genesis 1, since they were around before humans who evolved after them, my position. But cherubim.
            though it doesn't make sense to me, I find your theology refreshing because it leaves a fair amount of room to pick and choose. I can tell you've struggled to have it make sense to you. I do admire that.

            as for my-mom-in-law, she's too debilitated by fundamentalist guilt to think she's anything special. what makes me sad is that I can't get through to her because Christians have taught her to be suspicious of non-christians. where's her help to come from? she can't even pray for it because she doesnt know she has a problem, neither does she have the education to understand the nuances of her religion that allowed you to adapt to the discoveries in natural science.

            I think there's a lot of wreckage of fundamentalism and few with any ideas on how to reverse the damage.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              though it doesn't make sense to me, I find your theology refreshing because it leaves a fair amount of room to pick and choose. I can tell you've struggled to have it make sense to you. I do admire that.

              as for my-mom-in-law, she's too debilitated by fundamentalist guilt to think she's anything special. what makes me sad is that I can't get through to her because Christians have taught her to be suspicious of non-christians. where's her help to come from? she can't even pray for it because she doesnt know she has a problem, neither does she have the education to understand the nuances of her religion that allowed you to adapt to the discoveries in natural science.

              I think there's a lot of wreckage of fundamentalism and few with any ideas on how to reverse the damage.
              I'm sorry you are in that situation and wish I could suggest something better. For me just getting out of my own head and helping others works best, like pulling the elderly neighbor's weeds and putting her trash cans in the street to be picked up, things simple as that.

              But if she won't even admit she has a problem, I don't know if there's a whole lot you can do except to encourage her to do something different. Maybe even suggest a different church and go with her to emphasize happiness of fellowship, rather than morbid thoughts of Satan. Get some of her more reasonable Christian peers to talk to her, if you can. That may get through where you can't, but you are still helping.

              Comment

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