Satan's Story

[Sparko]

My theory is that Atheists reject the notion of God because they don't want to be bothered by the concept of morality being something objective.

Gee this trolling thing is fun Whag.

[whag]

My theory is that Atheists reject the notion of God because they don't want to be bothered by the concept of morality being something objective.

Gee this trolling thing is fun Whag.

Bothered theism comes in the form of the Phelpses and Rick Warren. yes, trolling can be fun in moderation.

[Sparko]

Atheism is just a myth.

[Darth Executor]

The dinosaurs were atheist, look where that got them.

[whag]

Atheism is just a myth.

atheism is more about thinking rationally about phenomena than assigning it dubious causation. Thomas Paine was a theist, but his thinking on these matters more than suffices as a presentation of atheism. in fact, its far preferable to me than any Dawkins or Harris screed.

[whag]

The dinosaurs were atheist, look where that got them.

yes, revered, admired, and feared even eons after their demise.

[Shadow Templar]

yes, revered, admired, and feared even eons after their demise.

Demise. So they lost. Cool story, bro.

[whag]

Oops, missed one...



The early Jews always had the belief of the satan being an accuser - he even gets his name from that job description. I don't have any particular historical instance in mind.

It's hard to get one's mind around the concept of that office. Who hired him and for what ultimate purpose?

[whag]

scratching the surface of the Satan story reveals the incoherence of the belief. i dont understand it.

[JohnnyP]

scratching the surface of the Satan story reveals the incoherence of the belief. i dont understand it.

The Serpent was created as a cherub to help Adam in Genesis 2, he double-crossed him instead, continues to mislead men, seems simple to me.

[whag]

The Serpent was created as a cherub to help Adam in Genesis 2, he double-crossed him instead, continues to mislead men

His qualifications seem incompatible with the office to which he was appointed. No employer hires like that.

How does he try to mislead you?

[JohnnyP]

His qualifications seem incompatible with the office to which he was appointed. No employer hires like that.

Free will allows for failure, look what happened to Judas as he was appointed to be a disciple.

As I said elsewhere, the Serpent's functions as Adam's helper seem similar to High Priest and Temple functions:

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Compare:

Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

A priest is forbidden to enter the Temple except at the time of the service, nor may anyone enter the holy of holies except for the high priest at the proper times during the Yom Kippur service, as it says "And he shall not come at all times into the holy place inside the curtain in front of the cover that is on the ark, and he shall not die". -Torah.org

• The Serpent was anointed like a High Priest who was only allowed in the Holy Place, others died.
• The Serpent was like a Cherub that covered the Mercy Seat from which God's Laws came.
• The Serpent interpreted God's Laws about the Tree of Knowledge to Eve.
• Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge and died.

So story mirrors one of the Serpent wrongly leading Adam and Eve into the Holy Place of God's Knowledge causing their deaths.

In the Gospels, the High Priest also helped cause the death of Jesus. So High Priests aren't always perfect.

How does he try to mislead you?

Job is a good example, universal among many believers, Satan trying to get us to curse God when things don't go our way.

[whag]

Free will allows for failure, look what happened to Judas as he was appointed to be a disciple.

Consider that judas witnessed deity-proving miracles but then kissed God and got him arrested. This is hardly believable. in apologetics, we're told the disciples endured monstrous cruelty and never recanted ONLY because they had eyewitness confirmation of Jesus' deity.

Was it compelling proof or not? Only a madman would see a higher reward in killing God, therefore the judas story isn't believable. Free will isn't an excuse to ignore obvious mental illness in a person.

Job is a good example, universal among many believers, Satan trying to get us to curse God when things don't go our way.

Job is a myth. You really think suffering and hardship should be interpreted thus?

[JohnnyP]

Consider that judas witnessed deity-proving miracles but then kissed God and got him arrested. This is hardly believable. in apologetics, we're told the disciples endured monstrous cruelty and never recanted ONLY because they had eyewitness confirmation of Jesus' deity.

Peter denied Jesus too. But are you saying all Christians not eyewitnessing Jesus recanted belief as they were being martyred? That's kind of an amazing claim, is there any evidence of this? Recalling...

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Was it compelling proof or not? Only a madman would see a higher reward in killing God, therefore the judas story isn't believable. Free will isn't an excuse to ignore obvious mental illness in a person.

Some speculate that Judas may have thought Jesus was a false prophet performing miracles of Satan. Others that he was a Zealot and because he didn't see a Warrior Messiah, believed he was a False Messiah. Various believable reasons as to why Judas did what he did.

Job is a myth.

When you ask, "How does he try to mislead you?" I take it as, "How do you believe he tries to mislead you?" I don't take every question about God or the Bible as a challenge to prove God exists or that the Bible is always about true events, we already know there is no proof about much of it, yet. Not really being interested in that goose chase or trying to defend it as a true story, I can only state belief that it is. I am more interested in discussing how the Bible can make sense, how an omniscient God can allow free will, etc.

You really think suffering and hardship should be interpreted thus?

Nope, sometimes stuff just happens too. When it does, I believe Satan and demons can try to cause people to lose faith and curse God for their misfortunes. As well as cause people to linger on thoughts of other sins like adultery, hatred, etc. It's not a case of "the devil made me do it" if we give in, but believers are responsible for asking God to remove those temptations.

[whag]

Peter denied Jesus too. But are you saying all Christians not eyewitnessing Jesus recanted belief as they were being martyred? That's kind of an amazing claim, is there any evidence of this? Recalling...

No, I referenced a common apologetic that Christians use to explain why Christianity didn't fizzle out.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

one might as well credit Mormons and Muslims for believing that which they did not see. it hardly seems a virtue when people believe weird things apart from directly seeing them take place.

Some speculate that Judas may have thought Jesus was a false prophet performing miracles of Satan.

if it was a genuine religious misunderstanding, it surely becomes more believable. IOW, Judas cashes in on false prophet of Satan who deserves to die. I get that.

Others that he was a Zealot and because he didn't see a Warrior Messiah, believed he was a False Messiah. Various believable reasons as to why Judas did what he did.

surely, those explanations seek to minimize the incredulity of Judas' story, interpreting his actions as motivated by genuine religious misunderstanding. Did satan possibly experience a similar misunderstanding that makes the story more believable to you?

When you ask, "How does he try to mislead you?" I take it as, "How do you believe he tries to mislead you?" I don't take every question about God or the Bible as a challenge to prove God exists or that the Bible is always about true events, we already know there is no proof about much of it, yet. Not really being interested in that goose chase or trying to defend it as a true story, I can only state belief that it is. I am more interested in discussing how the Bible can make sense, how an omniscient God can allow free will, etc.

You said Satan tests you like he did with Job, then bow put of further discussion of that vital interaction.

Nope, sometimes stuff just happens too. When it does, I believe Satan and demons can try to cause people to lose faith and curse God for their misfortunes.

and if they succeed in getting you to curse God while you're suffering, what does God do? are they trying to force a divine reaction?

As well as cause people to linger on thoughts of other sins like adultery, hatred, etc. It's not a case of "the devil made me do it" if we give in, but believers are responsible for asking God to remove those temptations.

these demons have the power to read your mind and extend your negative thoughts? I'm not a believer, but when I get a negative thought I go for a brisk walk and counter negative thoughts with positive ones. this seems to me a more rational approach than thinking demons have access to your cognition.

my mother in law, for example, has gone off the rails with this belief in satan and would be much better off without the burden of believing in demons bent on her destruction. surely you agree this worldview isn't for everybody, yes?