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The Laws Of Nature, A Violation?

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I don't have a problem with other gods performing miracles - doing otherwise would require scrapping a reasonable sized portion of the Bible.
    What other gods in the bible performed miracles? I don't understand.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NORM
      The most I could go, as a skeptic, is to suggest that whatever Life Force there is in the Universe (if one exists at all) could quite possibly plant these notions in your imagination in order to calm the natural fear of death and the lack of certainty of an afterlife. I think Seer has said as much throughout the course of this thread. Although, I think he may actually still think the floating fern actually happened.
      I think this is the most reasonable and charitable interpretation. Seer says a guy on a mountain bike witnessed it, but I find that doubtful because the sign was meant for seer. The only conclusion we can come to is that the bike eyewitness was also a Christian who needed the same confirmation. Otherwise it's just some random freaky incident that has no context for the biker.
      Last edited by whag; 08-06-2014, 07:58 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by whag View Post
        Otherwise it's just some random freaky incident that has no context for him.
        That is correct, I think he thought it was some kind of magic trick. Or perhaps like I first thought, that it was suspended in a web. He was definitely confused.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by whag View Post
          What other gods in the bible performed miracles? I don't understand.
          Most readily coming to mind - Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicating some of Moses' parlour tricks. Then also, the witch at Endor. And of course, Simon (Magus) Acts 8, though that one could be considered inconclusive.
          Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 08:07 AM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Most readily coming to mind - Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicating some of Moses' parlour tricks.
            Whose divine services enabled those miracles?


            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Then also, the witch at Endor.
            Another god enabled the calling of Samuel's ghost? Does this god have a name?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              Whose divine services enabled those miracles?
              Satan, but he is not divine.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • hmmm ... I see your point. It is not stated that pagan gods are actually involved in those actions. I'll have to review things a bit.
                Or would prophesying in the name of foreign deities serve well enough?

                Another god enabled the calling of Samuel's ghost? Does this god have a name?
                And no - but the witch nearly died with her leg in the air when Samuel showed up instead of her familiar spirit.
                Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 09:13 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Satan, but he is not divine.
                  Tabby specifically said "gods", so confer with him.

                  Strange that God would allow Satan to duplicate miracles and call dead Samuel back to earth.

                  Comment


                  • Most Christians are monotheist, have a problem with gods and prefer to attribute such things to Satan - I'm henotheist, and don't have a problem with gods.

                    As to God permitting Satan to act, not strange at all - it's just another facet of the problem of evil. Pharaoh was given an object lesson when his sorcerers produced snakes - how well did that work out for them? And did he learn anything from the lesson?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      hmmm ... I see your point. It is not stated that pagan gods are actually involved in those actions. I'll have to review things a bit.
                      Or would prophesying in the name of foreign deities serve well enough?
                      I think that's a question for yourself. You said gods perform miracles, and so we all wondered what you're talking about.



                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      And no - but the witch nearly died with her leg in the air when Samuel showed up instead of her familiar spirit.
                      What does her near death experience have to do with anything? You said another god enabled Samuel's summoning. How does that work, exactly?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Most Christians are monotheist, have a problem with gods and prefer to attribute such things to Satan - I'm henotheist, and don't have a problem with gods.

                        As to God permitting Satan to act, not strange at all - it's just another facet of the problem of evil. Pharaoh was given an object lesson when his sorcerers produced snakes - how well did that work out for them? And did he learn anything from the lesson?

                        Well his heart was hardened by God himself, so it's hard to see how a lesson was intended.

                        And I don't see how the sorcerers failing from the outset would have made things any different, save for the story being less dramatic.

                        Comment


                        • NO - never mentioned Samuel, you read that into my post. I was referring to the witch at Endor's reputation as a medium.
                          Seeing as I never can tell which set phrases, colloquialisms and such like are known in various places around the world, "nearly died with her leg in the air" = "got the fright of her life." Wholly unexpected that Samuel should have shown up instead of her familiar. That incident I'll put down to God having a sense of irony.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Well his heart was hardened by God himself, so it's hard to see how a lesson was intended.
                            That story does the rounds - but it doesn't hold water when the entire record is read in context. (And yes, "in context" does all too often get said without any foundation in fact or attempt to demonstrate what "in context" really means.)

                            First up - God says to Moses "I perceive that he will not let you go regardless of what happens, so I will harden his heart."
                            The record of the sequence is
                            A is done, Pharaoh hardens his heart, B happens with the same result, C happens - same again, D happens - God hardens his heart. That is done from time to time ... after a number of opportunities for repentance have been spurned, ability to repent is revoked - usually for a time, on rare occasions permanently.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              NO - never mentioned Samuel, you read that into my post. I was referring to the witch at Endor's reputation as a medium.
                              Seeing as I never can tell which set phrases, colloquialisms and such like are known in various places around the world, "nearly died with her leg in the air" = "got the fright of her life." Wholly unexpected that Samuel should have shown up instead of her familiar. That incident I'll put down to God having a sense of irony.
                              You clearly used the witch as an example of another god's "miracle." Please explain what you meant in the context of your henotheism.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                That story does the rounds - but it doesn't hold water when the entire record is read in context. (And yes, "in context" does all too often get said without any foundation in fact or attempt to demonstrate what "in context" really means.)

                                First up - God says to Moses "I perceive that he will not let you go regardless of what happens, so I will harden his heart."
                                The record of the sequence is
                                A is done, Pharaoh hardens his heart, B happens with the same result, C happens - same again, D happens - God hardens his heart. That is done from time to time ... after a number of opportunities for repentance have been spurned, ability to repent is revoked - usually for a time, on rare occasions permanently.
                                If the pharoah's repentence was intended, it's hard to see how deceiving him into thinking that his gods were real and had power would effect the repentance. Obviously this is legend, and the story was told for dramatic effect.

                                Please specify the actors you think were behind the miracles.

                                Comment

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