Originally posted by tabibito
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Laws Of Nature, A Violation?
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Originally posted by NORMThe most I could go, as a skeptic, is to suggest that whatever Life Force there is in the Universe (if one exists at all) could quite possibly plant these notions in your imagination in order to calm the natural fear of death and the lack of certainty of an afterlife. I think Seer has said as much throughout the course of this thread. Although, I think he may actually still think the floating fern actually happened.Last edited by whag; 08-06-2014, 07:58 AM.
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Originally posted by whag View PostOtherwise it's just some random freaky incident that has no context for him.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhat other gods in the bible performed miracles? I don't understand.Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 08:07 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostMost readily coming to mind - Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicating some of Moses' parlour tricks.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThen also, the witch at Endor.
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhose divine services enabled those miracles?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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hmmm ... I see your point. It is not stated that pagan gods are actually involved in those actions. I'll have to review things a bit.
Or would prophesying in the name of foreign deities serve well enough?
Another god enabled the calling of Samuel's ghost? Does this god have a name?Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 09:13 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Most Christians are monotheist, have a problem with gods and prefer to attribute such things to Satan - I'm henotheist, and don't have a problem with gods.
As to God permitting Satan to act, not strange at all - it's just another facet of the problem of evil. Pharaoh was given an object lesson when his sorcerers produced snakes - how well did that work out for them? And did he learn anything from the lesson?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Posthmmm ... I see your point. It is not stated that pagan gods are actually involved in those actions. I'll have to review things a bit.
Or would prophesying in the name of foreign deities serve well enough?
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAnd no - but the witch nearly died with her leg in the air when Samuel showed up instead of her familiar spirit.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostMost Christians are monotheist, have a problem with gods and prefer to attribute such things to Satan - I'm henotheist, and don't have a problem with gods.
As to God permitting Satan to act, not strange at all - it's just another facet of the problem of evil. Pharaoh was given an object lesson when his sorcerers produced snakes - how well did that work out for them? And did he learn anything from the lesson?
Well his heart was hardened by God himself, so it's hard to see how a lesson was intended.
And I don't see how the sorcerers failing from the outset would have made things any different, save for the story being less dramatic.
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NO - never mentioned Samuel, you read that into my post. I was referring to the witch at Endor's reputation as a medium.
Seeing as I never can tell which set phrases, colloquialisms and such like are known in various places around the world, "nearly died with her leg in the air" = "got the fright of her life." Wholly unexpected that Samuel should have shown up instead of her familiar. That incident I'll put down to God having a sense of irony.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Well his heart was hardened by God himself, so it's hard to see how a lesson was intended.
First up - God says to Moses "I perceive that he will not let you go regardless of what happens, so I will harden his heart."
The record of the sequence is
A is done, Pharaoh hardens his heart, B happens with the same result, C happens - same again, D happens - God hardens his heart. That is done from time to time ... after a number of opportunities for repentance have been spurned, ability to repent is revoked - usually for a time, on rare occasions permanently.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNO - never mentioned Samuel, you read that into my post. I was referring to the witch at Endor's reputation as a medium.
Seeing as I never can tell which set phrases, colloquialisms and such like are known in various places around the world, "nearly died with her leg in the air" = "got the fright of her life." Wholly unexpected that Samuel should have shown up instead of her familiar. That incident I'll put down to God having a sense of irony.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat story does the rounds - but it doesn't hold water when the entire record is read in context. (And yes, "in context" does all too often get said without any foundation in fact or attempt to demonstrate what "in context" really means.)
First up - God says to Moses "I perceive that he will not let you go regardless of what happens, so I will harden his heart."
The record of the sequence is
A is done, Pharaoh hardens his heart, B happens with the same result, C happens - same again, D happens - God hardens his heart. That is done from time to time ... after a number of opportunities for repentance have been spurned, ability to repent is revoked - usually for a time, on rare occasions permanently.
Please specify the actors you think were behind the miracles.
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