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Can we trust what God says?

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  • mossrose
    replied
    God kills the unrighteousness because He is just. His perfect justice is part of His character, as is His truthfulness.

    Man is not righteous, truthful, or just. Hence we cannot understand a God who is those things, and we try to make Him into our image.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
    If you are still reading, I am assuming you do believe God has the right to kill us if he pleases.
    Yes, of course. But again, this first death is not permanent in Christian theology. So I have a future hope for the truly innocent, like the very young.

    I have to wonder why God cannot lie by his nature, but he can kill. What is it about his nature that makes killing possible but not lying?
    Again Pixie those people who were physically killed in the OT are not dead. The most important part of the man is his soul - and their soul survives until the final judgement. And obviously God believes He has the right to take the life He gave. Whether you think He does is completely immaterial.

    Sure, scripture says God cannot lie, but where does that idea come from? God? Any good liar will tell you he is not a liar.
    I'm just telling you what Scripture teaches, do what you will with it.

    God did not say spiritually dead, though, did he? In fact, the phrase is not even in the Bible. What does it actually mean? Did his spirit die that day? That is not what it usually means. So I wonder in what sense anything actually died.

    What do you think Adam understood God to mean?
    I don't know what Adam knew, perhaps he really did sense a profound separation from God. But I gave you examples in scripture where "death" can not be a physical event. Do what you will with it.

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  • The Pixie
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    First, according to Christian theology when a man dies in this world that is not the end of him. He still lives. There will be a future judgement, at this point is the final death, or "second death." And those that are truly innocent, perhaps like young children, will be saved.
    This thread is directed at those who justify the Biblical genocides by saying God has the right to kill us if he pleases. If you do not hold to that, I have no argument with you.
    Second, we would say that there are certain things that God can not do by nature - God is "truth" - scripture does not claim that God chooses not to lie, but that He cannot lie.
    If you are still reading, I am assuming you do believe God has the right to kill us if he pleases.

    I have to wonder why God cannot lie by his nature, but he can kill. What is it about his nature that makes killing possible but not lying?

    Sure, scripture says God cannot lie, but where does that idea come from? God? Any good liar will tell you he is not a liar.
    Pixie you have been around Christians to know that we believe both in a physical death and a spiritual death. We believe Adam did in fact die spiritually on the day he sinned. Scripture says that we are all "dead in our trespasses and sin." Does that men we are physically dead at that point? No. Paul understood this, when he came to a point in his life where he knew the law and violated the law that he died:

    Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

    He did not physically die at that point, but spiritually.
    God did not say spiritually dead, though, did he? In fact, the phrase is not even in the Bible. What does it actually mean? Did his spirit die that day? That is not what it usually means. So I wonder in what sense anything actually died.

    What do you think Adam understood God to mean?

    Perhaps you can point me to the verse when they died. I see a bit that goes: "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked" Was it then? Does spiritual death open your eyes to reality? Or was it later when God punished them?

    See, as I read it I see no sense that there was spiritual death. It looks to me as though this is something people have invented later to cover up God's lie.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
    If God is free to kill us when convenient, why should we imagine he is not free to lie to us when convenient?

    Think about this. I imagine very very few of the people reading this have every killed anyone, but who can honestly say they have never told a lie? Lying is much easier than killing, much less of a wrong. If you admit God can kill whoever he wants, how can you possibly deny that God can likewise lie whenever he wants?
    First, according to Christian theology when a man dies in this world that is not the end of him. He still lives. There will be a future judgement, at this point is the final death, or "second death." And those that are truly innocent, perhaps like young children, will be saved. Second, we would say that there are certain things that God can not do by nature - God is "truth" - scripture does not claim that God chooses not to lie, but that He cannot lie.

    Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.”

    Hebrews 6:18: “It is impossible for God to lie.”

    James 1:17-18: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”
    God lied in the Bible:

    Adam did not die when he ate the fruit (he did eventually die, but that was inevitable, only if he ate from the Tree of Life would he live forever). God lied to Adam (and the serpent told the truth!). Why should we believe God about anything?
    Pixie you have been around Christians to know that we believe both in a physical death and a spiritual death. We believe Adam did in fact die spiritually on the day he sinned. Scripture says that we are all "dead in our trespasses and sin." Does that men we are physically dead at that point? No. Paul understood this, when he came to a point in his life where he knew the law and violated the law that he died:

    Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

    He did not physically die at that point, but spiritually.
    Last edited by seer; 07-28-2014, 08:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Replay from a resurrected subject from the old Tweb. As ancient literature the God(s) of the Pentateuch were very human Divine beings with one supreme God. The god(s) of the OT were more 'hands on' god(s) personally involved, this actually carries on to the Divine Right of Kings and others to act for God in this world, and justified in killing heathens and other non-believers.

    The Garden of Eden and the Fall are so grounded in Christian theology, some form of reality of Genesis needs to justified even though many do not consider the events literally true.

    The most common explanation for Adam and Eve not dying after eating from the fruit of the forbidden tree is that they loose their immortality that was the benefit of eating from the tree of life, and not die immediately. In this interpretation God is not considered lying.

    Some time later God apparently lied to an Egyptian Pharaoh.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-28-2014, 07:27 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Pixie
    started a topic Can we trust what God says?

    Can we trust what God says?

    A common justification for the Biblical genocides is that God, as the creator of mankind, has the right to take life if he wants.

    William L Craig seems to be the most vocal proponent of this idea, for example here, where he is talking about God's command to kill all the Canaanite peoples:

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaug...the-canaanites
    According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God. Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are. For example, I have no right to take an innocent life. For me to do so would be murder. But God has no such prohibition. He can give and take life as He chooses. ... God is under no obligation whatsoever to extend my life for another second. If He wanted to strike me dead right now, that’s His prerogative.
    If God is free to kill us when convenient, why should we imagine he is not free to lie to us when convenient?

    Think about this. I imagine very very few of the people reading this have every killed anyone, but who can honestly say they have never told a lie? Lying is much easier than killing, much less of a wrong. If you admit God can kill whoever he wants, how can you possibly deny that God can likewise lie whenever he wants?

    God lied in the Bible:
    Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
    Adam did not die when he ate the fruit (he did eventually die, but that was inevitable, only if he ate from the Tree of Life would he live forever). God lied to Adam (and the serpent told the truth!). Why should we believe God about anything?

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