Can we trust what God says?

[whag]

I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.

That's bibliolatry and what earned American evangelicalism its bad name. Many human beings speak trustworthy things without a comfy harmonization with scripture. Scripture, we've discovered, is ambiguous.

Take animal cruelty, for example.

[mossrose]

You are coming from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, which would assume as a matter of fact that God justifiably ordered the execution of individuals and groups in the OT. I believe in God, and find justifiable extensive evidence that the Bible, especially the OT could no possibly be a literal historical document. It is simply ancient literature compiled and edited over time and reflects the beliefs of those that wrote it.

In light of this it is unlikely that we will ever agree. The bottom line is I go by the historical and archeological evidence.

You don't believe in the God of the scriptures. You worship a different god.

It is a matter of history that many, including Jews, Christians, Moslems, and others have claimed to have killed as instructed by God in the name of God throughout human history. have no evidence to justify any one or more acts over others, that they all simply nothing more then a human justification and motivation to kill.

And it is a matter of history that atheists and agnostics also murder instructed by their own lack of morality. And those who kill "in the name of God" are not always the name they give themselves. An old and tiresome argument from your side.

It goes back to the authority of scripture and that which is recorded in it. And I have already stated my stand on that.

[shunyadragon]

I believe that scripture is the inspired word of God, and that those who recorded it did so with accuracy. And it has been preserved with accuracy. Scripture is my final authority, it is what I stand on.

If you don't believe in God, you won't believe His word. It is foolishness to you. I know this, because scripture says so. You are blinded by the god of this world. I know this because scripture says so.

You will die in your sins, both physically and spiritually, unless you confess your sinful nature and come to Christ. I know this because scripture says so.

I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.

Now, any arguments you may have about the accuracy of God's word, or anything else regarding it, I will not engage, as I have stated my stand here.

Regarding your question about the claims of men that God instructed them to kill in scripture, please note that when those who were commanded by The Lord disobeyed Him, they were also punished. Why state something God told you to do if you knew that there were consequences if you were lying?

You are coming from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, which would assume as a matter of fact that God justifiably ordered the execution of individuals and groups in the OT. I believe in God, and find justifiable extensive evidence that the Bible, especially the OT could no possibly be a literal historical document. It is simply ancient literature compiled and edited over time and reflects the beliefs of those that wrote it.

In light of this it is unlikely that we will ever agree. The bottom line is I go by the historical and archeological evidence.

It is a matter of history that many, including Jews, Christians, Moslems, and others have claimed to have killed as instructed by God in the name of God throughout human history. have no evidence to justify any one or more acts over others, that they all simply nothing more then a human justification and motivation to kill.

[tabibito]

actually, Genesis 3:22 doesn't make anything clear except the fact that Adam was mortal at the time when God made that specific utterance. There's nothing in Genesis 3:22 that would exclude Adam from being immortal prior to eating the fruit."Certainly" does not mean "immediately".

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
There is, however, more than one way to die.

How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.

God gave the command, or he didn't. If the former, it is necessary to assume that God knew the outcomes of alternative action. If the latter, possibilities come into play - 1/ The person had no fear of bearing false witness about God. 2/ The person was deceived, perhaps by his own lack of understanding.
As to the second, there is one account that would certainly fit the criteria.

[mossrose]

How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.

I believe that scripture is the inspired word of God, and that those who recorded it did so with accuracy. And it has been preserved with accuracy. Scripture is my final authority, it is what I stand on.

If you don't believe in God, you won't believe His word. It is foolishness to you. I know this, because scripture says so. You are blinded by the god of this world. I know this because scripture says so.

You will die in your sins, both physically and spiritually, unless you confess your sinful nature and come to Christ. I know this because scripture says so.

I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.

Now, any arguments you may have about the accuracy of God's word, or anything else regarding it, I will not engage, as I have stated my stand here.

Regarding your question about the claims of men that God instructed them to kill in scripture, please note that when those who were commanded by The Lord disobeyed Him, they were also punished. Why state something God told you to do if you knew that there were consequences if you were lying?

[shunyadragon]

God kills the unrighteousness because He is just. His perfect justice is part of His character, as is His truthfulness.

Man is not righteous, truthful, or just. Hence we cannot understand a God who is those things, and we try to make Him into our image.

How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.

[seer]

Based on what?

Scripture

If he has the right of life and death, does it also have the right to lie to us? You seem to miss that issue, which is unfortunate as it is the point of the thread.

I don't know if God has the right to lie to us, but God can not lie. So the point is moot.

Scripture teaches all sorts of things that you already ignore, such as people going to hell.

I believe in hell, or rather the lake of fire. I just don't believe that it is eternal. Or what the "suffering" actually consists of.

A profound separation from God? He was talking to him hours later.

It has noting to do with whether God can or can not talk to us. It has to do with the Spirit of God dwelling in us.

[seer]

Another part of God's character, which from what I can tell has been rather overlooked in this thread's previous replies, is that God is by nature a Saviour! Yes, He does have the right to kill as He pleases. But...

Yes, He is just. But He is gracious, merciful and forgiving to those who repent and turn from their sins to Him! This time we're living in now is a time of grace, in which He's allowing time for lost sinners to repent and be saved. Instead of asking how a loving God can take at will the life of anyone He pleases, why not ask how He can be so merciful to allow those of us who deserve eternal death (and we all certainly do) to live?

Amen...

[JonathanL]

Really? So some sins making a person deserving of eternal torture in hell, but no sin is so great that anyone deserves to be lied to?

It doesn't have anything to do with how great a sin you commit, it's just that there are no specific kinds of sins, whether small or great, that would make being lied to a deserving punishment.

How do you know this?

Common sense, and the fact that the Bible never prescribes being lied to as a penalty for sin.

So it is in his nature to be merciful and to punish?

Yes. God punishes the unrepentant, but grants mercy to the repentant.

You know that how?

The same way I know anything about God; I read the Bible.

He was not immortal, as Genesis 3:22 makes clear.

Actually, Genesis 3:22 doesn't make anything clear except the fact that Adam was mortal at the time when God made that specific utterance. There's nothing in Genesis 3:22 that would exclude Adam from being immortal prior to eating the fruit.

So when God said "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” he meant, If you eat the fruit, then I will not let you eat from the tree of life, and so in many centuries you will eventually die.

"Certainly" does not mean "immediately".

[The Pixie]

This is actually pretty easy to answer: God is justified in taking our lives whenever He wants, because our sins have made us deserving of death.

That is certainly what God has told us. Why suppose it is true.

I appreciate Christians have different beliefs, but the idea of original sin is common. God has told us that we are sinful from the moment we are born, and from what you say that sin means he can kill us if he wants. That is, God has decided we are sinful, and that then gives him the right to kill who he likes.

There are no sins however, that would make a person deserving of being lied to.

Really? So some sins making a person deserving of eternal torture in hell, but no sin is so great that anyone deserves to be lied to?

How do you know this?

Because it is in God's nature to punish sin (although it's also in His nature to grant mercy to the repentant).

So it is in his nature to be merciful and to punish?

It is not however in God's nature to tell a lie.

You know that how?

There are possible ways to reconcile this passage so that it doesn't make God out to be a liar. One is the proposition that has already been mentioned, namely that Adam died spiritually.

See discussion with seer.

Another one is that Adam was immortal, but lost his immortality when he did what God had forbidden him to do.

He was not immortal, as Genesis 3:22 makes clear.

A third one would be that Adam was created mortal, but God would have let him eat from the Tree of Life if only he had heeded God's command and hadn't eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.

So when God said "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” he meant, If you eat the fruit, then I will not let you eat from the tree of life, and so in many centuries you will eventually die.

[The Pixie]

Yes, of course. But again, this first death is not permanent in Christian theology. So I have a future hope for the truly innocent, like the very young.

Based on what?

Again Pixie those people who were physically killed in the OT are not dead. The most important part of the man is his soul - and their soul survives until the final judgement. And obviously God believes He has the right to take the life He gave. Whether you think He does is completely immaterial.

If he has the right of life and death, does it also have the right to lie to us? You seem to miss that issue, which is unfortunate as it is the point of the thread.

I'm just telling you what Scripture teaches, do what you will with it.

Scripture teaches all sorts of things that you already ignore, such as people going to hell.

I don't know what Adam knew, perhaps he really did sense a profound separation from God. But I gave you examples in scripture where "death" can not be a physical event. Do what you will with it.

A profound separation from God? He was talking to him hours later.

[JonathanL]

If God is free to kill us when convenient, why should we imagine he is not free to lie to us when convenient?

This is actually pretty easy to answer: God is justified in taking our lives whenever He wants, because our sins have made us deserving of death. There are no sins however, that would make a person deserving of being lied to.

Think about this. I imagine very very few of the people reading this have every killed anyone, but who can honestly say they have never told a lie? Lying is much easier than killing, much less of a wrong. If you admit God can kill whoever he wants, how can you possibly deny that God can likewise lie whenever he wants?

Because it is in God's nature to punish sin (although it's also in His nature to grant mercy to the repentant). It is not however in God's nature to tell a lie.

God lied in the Bible:

Adam did not die when he ate the fruit (he did eventually die, but that was inevitable, only if he ate from the Tree of Life would he live forever). God lied to Adam (and the serpent told the truth!). Why should we believe God about anything?

There are possible ways to reconcile this passage so that it doesn't make God out to be a liar. One is the proposition that has already been mentioned, namely that Adam died spiritually. Another one is that Adam was immortal, but lost his immortality when he did what God had forbidden him to do. A third one would be that Adam was created mortal, but God would have let him eat from the Tree of Life if only he had heeded God's command and hadn't eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. In either interpretation, Adam transgressing God's command would have been an effective death sentence.

[Psychic Missile]

The confusing thing is that if all we know of God's character comes from what he chooses to let us know, then how can anyone claim to know God's true character?

[mossrose]

why not ask how He can be so merciful to allow those of us who deserve eternal death (and we all certainly do) to live?

Very good! Not one of us deserves to draw another breath! And it is only through His grace and mercy that we do!

[The Melody Maker]

Another part of God's character, which from what I can tell has been rather overlooked in this thread's previous replies, is that God is by nature a Saviour! Yes, He does have the right to kill as He pleases. But...

"As I live!" declares the Lord God, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways!"

"For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

Yes, He is just. But He is gracious, merciful and forgiving to those who repent and turn from their sins to Him! This time we're living in now is a time of grace, in which He's allowing time for lost sinners to repent and be saved. Instead of asking how a loving God can take at will the life of anyone He pleases, why not ask how He can be so merciful to allow those of us who deserve eternal death (and we all certainly do) to live?