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Can we trust what God says?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    If you define scripture as being a subsection of the Bible, that is true.
    Sure, if you pick out certain parts and ignore the rest, I do not doubt you can compose something clear and unambiguous. I am not convinced most people have that in mind when they use the word, however.
    Solid firmament not so much, and sun, moon, and stars travelling is acceptable if it is kept in mind that a subjective viewpoint is reasonable, and even if it isn't - there's no denying that all these things do travel.
    The firmament is in the Bible, and was considered to be a solid dome above the earth. This is from a science-orientated, Christian web site:

    http://biologos.org/blog/the-firmame...-not-the-point

    "One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. ...
    ... Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure.
    Biblical scholars agree on this understanding of raqia.
    "

    The Bible clearly and unambiguously says there is a solid dome above the world.
    Theistic evolution covers a lot of territory. It is possible to accept evolution theory in its entirety without ditching the smallest part of the Biblical record of creation. It comes unstuck with the flood though.
    I think most theistic evolutionists would say the sun was there first, then the earth, then the plants.
    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

    Comment


    • #32
      "One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. ...
      ... Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure.
      Biblical scholars agree on this understanding of raqia."

      The Bible clearly and unambiguously says there is a solid dome above the world.
      I have no issue with the statement that the verse would generally have been understood to mean a solid dome. Our understanding of the concepts of the time would indicate that very thoroughly. I haven't seen anything beyond bare assertion to support the statement though - so I don't know whether our opinions have a grounding in solid evidence.

      The Biblical scholars agree that in the context of this verse, raqia means something solid. The question is, why have they arrived at that opinion? Again - I haven't seen any citations to support the conclusion. No use of the term "raqia" in the Old Testament conclusively indicates a solid. The translation in the LXX is στερεώματι
      that which has been made firm

      the firmament, the arch of the sky, which in early times was thought to be solid

      a fortified place

      that which furnishes a foundation

      on which a thing rests firmly, support


      The only time this word is used in the New Testament (Colossians 2:5), the idea that it can be a physical solid is simply ridiculous. It is a reference to the "foundation" of faith - the final entry for the definition provided.

      Bare assertions don't constitute evidence.
      Give me something solid as a basis for the claim, and I'll accept it. Until such evidence is provided, I'll consider "firmament" to be ambiguous.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Pixie
        Sure, if you pick out certain parts and ignore the rest, I do not doubt you can compose something clear and unambiguous. I am not convinced most people have that in mind when they use the word, however.
        Which part of "No prophecy of scripture arises from private interpretation, holy men of God spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them" would lead logically to the conclusion that everything in the Bible is inspired by God?
        Last edited by tabibito; 08-01-2014, 08:18 AM.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Until such evidence is provided, I'll consider "firmament" to be ambiguous.
          So you will understand, I hope, why I will take claims of the resurrection in the same way.

          By the way, I started this discussion of the firmament specifically because of the claim that scripture was not ambiguous. You might like to debate that point with mossrose.
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Which part of "No prophecy of scripture arises from private interpretation, holy men of God spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them" would lead logically to the conclusion that everything in the Bible is inspired by God?
          Me? I do not think any of it is.

          Do you? Can you tell me how you can decide which bits are and which bits are not?
          My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
            So you will understand, I hope, why I will take claims of the resurrection in the same way.

            By the way, I started this discussion of the firmament specifically because of the claim that scripture was not ambiguous. You might like to debate that point with mossrose.
            She might prefer someone that she has reason to count believable.

            Me? I do not think any of it is.
            I was asking for an assessment of the sentence itself, not for background. Sort of like "The bear walking towards me was blue with orange stripes" Which part of "was walking toward me" logically leads to the conclusion that the bear was dead?

            Do you? Can you tell me how you can decide which bits are and which bits are not?
            That there is a big question. I'll only give a bare outline.
            Does a statement have two or more witnesses independently attesting to it? Chalk it up as fact. Sift the facts to determine whether any claim was made that God said it -. If yes, call it prophecy of scripture. Jesus did not require that people believe him without that they had independent evidence from the Holy Spirit to back his assertions.

            Does a statement have only one witness?
            If it has, throw it in the maybe basket. Sort through the maybe basket - Is there any reason to doubt it? (maybe contradicted by something in the fact basket?) Paul's edicts regarding the role of women don't get past this one, or actually, some of them don't even make it that far.
            Make no assertions regarding anything in the maybe basket, but they can be stated provided that the problem is made known.
            I have moved only one (to date) item from the maybe basket to the prophecy of scripture category. Simply because it was confirmed as accurate through action of the Holy Spirit. (The believer is an ambassador in Christ's diplomatic service.)
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Pixie
              The firmament is in the Bible, and was considered to be a solid dome above the earth. This is from a science-orientated, Christian web site:

              http://biologos.org/blog/the-firmame...-not-the-point

              "One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. ...
              ... Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. The translation “firmament” (i.e., firm) gets across this idea of a solid structure.
              Biblical scholars agree on this understanding of raqia."

              The Bible clearly and unambiguously says there is a solid dome above the world.
              No, it doesn't say that at all. It says there is an "expanse", a word you yourself quoted.

              World English Dictionary
              expanse (ɪkˈspæns)

              — n
              1. an uninterrupted surface of something that spreads or extends, esp over a wide area; stretch: an expanse of water
              2. expansion or extension

              [C17: from New Latin expansum the heavens, from Latin expansus spread out, from expandere to expand ]

              And if you check that passage against other scriptures, you will come to Isaiah 40:22, which says,

              It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
              Which clearly says that the earth is a sphere.

              And Job 26:10

              "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness.
              Oh, look! A horizon! And that spot is called a "terminator", because it is where the light "stops". If you were standing on the terminator you would be either experiencing either sunrise or sunset. Going from dark into light or light into dark. And the terminator is always a circle, because the earth is round.

              You might want to note that Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, so even from the earliest times man understood that the earth is round.

              And Proverbs 8:27

              “When He established the heavens, I was there,
              When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
              And Job 38:14

              It is turned as clay to the seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
              referring to the earth.

              Seals were often cylindrical shapes carved with the name of the bearer. They were rolled across wet clay to imprint the carving on the seal. So, just as the seal is rolled across the clay and it's features become apparent, the earth, as it rotates on it's axis and is exposed to light, has it's features become apparent to the viewer.

              Scripture answers scripture. And there is no contradiction and there is clarity.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #37
                Which clearly says that the earth is a sphere.
                Again, current belief is that ancient belief considered it to be a disc.

                It is turned as clay to the seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
                "turned" is "becomes" or "formed" - the Earth is not the seal but the clay under the influence of the seal. The seal leaves raised and indented imprints on the clay/Earth.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • #38
                  As the earth turns on it's axis, it's features are displayed in the light, just as the features of the seal are displayed when it is turned in the clay. The features of a seal usually cannot be viewed until it is stamped, or rolled, as the image is a mirror of what is on the seal.

                  The point is that the earth rotates, God tells Job so, so the earth is round and it was understood to be so from earliest times.

                  I am done now. Don't have the inclination to respond further. I have given my answer to the op and the rest is tiresome in responding to those who won't and can't see the truth.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    No, it doesn't say that at all. It says there is an "expanse", a word you yourself quoted.

                    World English Dictionary
                    expanse (ɪkˈspæns)

                    — n
                    1. an uninterrupted surface of something that spreads or extends, esp over a wide area; stretch: an expanse of water
                    2. expansion or extension

                    [C17: from New Latin expansum the heavens, from Latin expansus spread out, from expandere to expand ]
                    Genesis 1: 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

                    Do you think the firmament was just sky? Let there be sky in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters? Sure sounds like you would want a solid structure for that.

                    Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

                    I would suggest "molten looking glass" is a reference to a polished metal mirror, as glass mirrors were unknown at that time. God spread out a solid metal structure.

                    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

                    God opened windows in the air or in a solid structure?

                    But most telling of all is that raqia meant a solid structure, as the site I linked to before makes clear. Kind of stange you want to offer the English word as evidence really.
                    And if you check that passage against other scriptures, you will come to Isaiah 40:22, which says,
                    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
                    Which clearly says that the earth is a sphere.

                    And Job 26:10-11
                    "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness. The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
                    Actually they say a circle, not a sphere. The Israelites had a word for ball, but rather than use that, they chose the word for circle.

                    And it even says there is a dome created by God, though here they use the analogy of a tent, as we might expect from desert nomads. Oh, I took the liberty of adding the next verse. The pillars of heaven would be where the firmament rests at the horizon.
                    Oh, look! A horizon! And that spot is called a "terminator", because it is where the light "stops". If you were standing on the terminator you would be either experiencing either sunrise or sunset. Going from dark into light or light into dark. And the terminator is always a circle, because the earth is round.
                    Imaginative.

                    Another interpretation is that the inscribing of a circle is the creation process. Genesis says:

                    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
                    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


                    Before God started there was water, upon which the Spirit of God moved. He created a flat circular world, a process that began by creating light within the darkness.
                    You might want to note that Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, so even from the earliest times man understood that the earth is round.
                    So why does it say circle and not ball?
                    And Proverbs 8:27
                    “When He established the heavens, I was there,
                    When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
                    Again, a reference to Genesis 1. A circle is inscribed on the deep, i.e., the waters. Not a ball created in space.
                    And Job 38:13-14
                    That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
                    referring to the earth.

                    Seals were often cylindrical shapes carved with the name of the bearer. They were rolled across wet clay to imprint the carving on the seal. So, just as the seal is rolled across the clay and it's features become apparent, the earth, as it rotates on it's axis and is exposed to light, has it's features become apparent to the viewer.
                    Again, I added an extra verse. This one mentions the ends of the earth. I would understand that to mean the rim of the circle. How about you?

                    An alternative interpretation of verse 14 is that it is about dawn's light coming across the land. At first everything seems flat, as the clay is before the seal, but then the sun's light illuminates the landscape, and the full relief can be seen, as though the clay has been pressed by a seal (okay, not one I would have got, but see here).
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      So why does it say circle and not ball?

                      ball
                      דּוּר
                      Transliteration
                      duwr

                      Pronunciation
                      dure (Key)
                      Part of Speech
                      masculine noun

                      Root Word (Etymology)
                      From דּוּר (H1752)
                      Dictionary Aids

                      TWOT Reference: 418a
                      Outline of Biblical Usage

                      ball, circle

                      circle

                      ball
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      circle

                      חוּג
                      Transliteration
                      chuwg

                      Pronunciation
                      khüg (Key)
                      Part of Speech
                      masculine noun

                      Root Word (Etymology)
                      From חוּג (H2328)
                      Dictionary Aids

                      TWOT Reference: 615a
                      Outline of Biblical Usage

                      circle, circuit, compass

                      (BDB) vault (of the heavens)

                      that's why.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Which one!
                        Good question from Christian perspective where scripture includes polytheistic and monotheistic views. My view is simple; there is only one God and Creator that is viewed differently from the fallible human culture perspective. This difference and evolution of 'What is God or God(s) known by different names over time in the Bible.

                        What is God? God is three letter word.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-26-2014, 08:00 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                          If God is free to kill us when convenient, why should we imagine he is not free to lie to us when convenient?
                          Because God can't lie.
                          "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago," (Titus 1:2)



                          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                          God lied in the Bible:
                          False. Adam and Eve experienced spiritual death in the Garden of Eden as the result of their disobedience.

                          Since you bring up the issue of lying and truth (and to accuse God of "lying" assumes that you know at least some truth), I'd like to know what the standard of truth is in your worldview, by which you intend to impugn God, and according to which you intend to hold Him accountable.
                          Last edited by Mr. Black; 08-25-2014, 01:28 PM.
                          Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus
                            This is actually pretty easy to answer: God is justified in taking our lives whenever He wants, because our sins have made us deserving of death. There are no sins however, that would make a person deserving of being lied to.]This is actually pretty easy to answer: God is justified in taking our lives whenever He wants, because our sins have made us deserving of death.
                            Big flaw here. Babies are killed, yet babies can't sin.


                            Originally posted by Chrawnus
                            There are no sins however, that would make a person deserving of being lied to.
                            Since when is killing worse than dishonesty? I was dishonest when my wife asked if she looked fat in her new dress.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              First, according to Christian theology when a man dies in this world that is not the end of him. He still lives.
                              I might think that was relevant to an understanding of Genesis, if I thought the author of Genesis was a Christian theologian.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                                I might think that was relevant to an understanding of Genesis, if I thought the author of Genesis was a Christian theologian.
                                The Author of Genesis is God. A human was the scribe that God used to physically write it down. Whether or not the human scribe had a comprehensive revelation of man and his post-physical life dwellings is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that God---the Author of Genesis, as well as the rest of the Bible---did. So yes, Seer's point is relevant.
                                Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

                                Comment

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