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Can we trust what God says?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    God kills the unrighteousness because He is just. His perfect justice is part of His character, as is His truthfulness.

    Man is not righteous, truthful, or just. Hence we cannot understand a God who is those things, and we try to make Him into our image.
    How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.
      I believe that scripture is the inspired word of God, and that those who recorded it did so with accuracy. And it has been preserved with accuracy. Scripture is my final authority, it is what I stand on.

      If you don't believe in God, you won't believe His word. It is foolishness to you. I know this, because scripture says so. You are blinded by the god of this world. I know this because scripture says so.

      You will die in your sins, both physically and spiritually, unless you confess your sinful nature and come to Christ. I know this because scripture says so.

      I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.

      Now, any arguments you may have about the accuracy of God's word, or anything else regarding it, I will not engage, as I have stated my stand here.

      Regarding your question about the claims of men that God instructed them to kill in scripture, please note that when those who were commanded by The Lord disobeyed Him, they were also punished. Why state something God told you to do if you knew that there were consequences if you were lying?


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        actually, Genesis 3:22 doesn't make anything clear except the fact that Adam was mortal at the time when God made that specific utterance. There's nothing in Genesis 3:22 that would exclude Adam from being immortal prior to eating the fruit."Certainly" does not mean "immediately".
        “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
        There is, however, more than one way to die.

        How trustworthy is the human claim that God instructed him to exact judgment and kill certain individuals or groups because they are heathens, sinners, or untighteous not deserving to live.
        God gave the command, or he didn't. If the former, it is necessary to assume that God knew the outcomes of alternative action. If the latter, possibilities come into play - 1/ The person had no fear of bearing false witness about God. 2/ The person was deceived, perhaps by his own lack of understanding.
        As to the second, there is one account that would certainly fit the criteria.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I believe that scripture is the inspired word of God, and that those who recorded it did so with accuracy. And it has been preserved with accuracy. Scripture is my final authority, it is what I stand on.

          If you don't believe in God, you won't believe His word. It is foolishness to you. I know this, because scripture says so. You are blinded by the god of this world. I know this because scripture says so.

          You will die in your sins, both physically and spiritually, unless you confess your sinful nature and come to Christ. I know this because scripture says so.

          I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.

          Now, any arguments you may have about the accuracy of God's word, or anything else regarding it, I will not engage, as I have stated my stand here.

          Regarding your question about the claims of men that God instructed them to kill in scripture, please note that when those who were commanded by The Lord disobeyed Him, they were also punished. Why state something God told you to do if you knew that there were consequences if you were lying?
          You are coming from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, which would assume as a matter of fact that God justifiably ordered the execution of individuals and groups in the OT. I believe in God, and find justifiable extensive evidence that the Bible, especially the OT could no possibly be a literal historical document. It is simply ancient literature compiled and edited over time and reflects the beliefs of those that wrote it.

          In light of this it is unlikely that we will ever agree. The bottom line is I go by the historical and archeological evidence.

          It is a matter of history that many, including Jews, Christians, Moslems, and others have claimed to have killed as instructed by God in the name of God throughout human history. have no evidence to justify any one or more acts over others, that they all simply nothing more then a human justification and motivation to kill.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-29-2014, 12:21 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            You are coming from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, which would assume as a matter of fact that God justifiably ordered the execution of individuals and groups in the OT. I believe in God, and find justifiable extensive evidence that the Bible, especially the OT could no possibly be a literal historical document. It is simply ancient literature compiled and edited over time and reflects the beliefs of those that wrote it.

            In light of this it is unlikely that we will ever agree. The bottom line is I go by the historical and archeological evidence.
            You don't believe in the God of the scriptures. You worship a different god.

            It is a matter of history that many, including Jews, Christians, Moslems, and others have claimed to have killed as instructed by God in the name of God throughout human history. have no evidence to justify any one or more acts over others, that they all simply nothing more then a human justification and motivation to kill.
            And it is a matter of history that atheists and agnostics also murder instructed by their own lack of morality. And those who kill "in the name of God" are not always the name they give themselves. An old and tiresome argument from your side.

            It goes back to the authority of scripture and that which is recorded in it. And I have already stated my stand on that.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

              I believe scripture. I don't trust anything outside of scripture that is spoken of by a human unless it absolutely lines up with scripture.
              That's bibliolatry and what earned American evangelicalism its bad name. Many human beings speak trustworthy things without a comfy harmonization with scripture. Scripture, we've discovered, is ambiguous.

              Take animal cruelty, for example.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                That's bibliolatry and what earned American evangelicalism its bad name. Many human beings speak trustworthy things without a comfy harmonization with scripture. Scripture, we've discovered, is ambiguous.

                Take animal cruelty, for example.
                Bibliolatry. How ridiculous. Scripture is not ambiguous. It is very clear. And it doesn't contradict itself.

                And that is my last word on that.

                I am not American, either.



                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  Bibliolatry. How ridiculous. Scripture is not ambiguous. It is very clear. And it doesn't contradict itself.

                  And that is my last word on that.

                  I am not American, either.

                  Only fundamentalists say there is no ambiguity in scripture. It's very unclear on some matters, hence why we midrash. If scripture was entirely clear, there wouldn't be different sects and beliefs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Only fundamentalists say there is no ambiguity in scripture.It's very unclear on some matters, hence why we midrash. If scripture was entirely clear, there wouldn't be different sects and beliefs.
                    People keep tossing "fundamentalist"around as if it's a disease. It certainly is not an insult to me, rather I am glad to be called that! I do not think that word means what you think it means, sort of like "homophobic" is consistently misused.

                    There are different sects and beliefs because people try to interpret scripture to fit their preconceived ideas of what they want it to say.

                    Look. I have stated my position. I am not ashamed of my position. I stand on scripture as my final authority for everything. I do not worship scripture, I worship the God who gave it to us and I praise Him for His Spirit who enlightens those who desire to learn the truth.

                    Call me whatever you will, it doesn't matter to me.


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      You don't believe in the God of the scriptures. You worship a different god.
                      I thank God for that!!! I definitely do not believe in the god(s) of ancient world views. Yes they believed in God and worshiped God, but there comes a day to give up the ghosts of the ancient past.


                      And it is a matter of history that atheists and agnostics also murder instructed by their own lack of morality. And those who kill "in the name of God" are not always the name they give themselves. An old and tiresome argument from your side.
                      The problem is a very real problem from many world views to kill others who believe differently, whether Jews, Christians, Moslems, Atheists or whatever. I do know of anyone who has killed in the name of agnosticism. The argument from my side is that it was a terrible injustice 3000 years ago, 2000 years ago as it is today, and one of the greatest tragedies of human history which continues today, to kill in the name of this god or other god or gods, or no god and it is unjustified,

                      I do not believe god(s) actually gave such commands to kill. Humans basically justified their actions by claiming that they were acting on god's commands.

                      It goes back to the authority of scripture and that which is recorded in it. And I have already stated my stand on that.
                      Yes, I have been on Tweb for many years and aware of your beliefs.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-31-2014, 07:08 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shuny
                        I thank God for that!!!
                        Which one!


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          People keep tossing "fundamentalist"around as if it's a disease. It certainly is not an insult to me, rather I am glad to be called that! I do not think that word means what you think it means, sort of like "homophobic" is consistently misused.
                          Homophobia is another issue I consider maybe, but not necessarily so. There are many problems with science, logic and reason, and relationship with those (everyone) who believes differently.

                          I vote for a disease, or maybe the plague, possibly a global pandemic, regardless of whether it is Judaism, Christianity, Islam or fanatical campaigns of no god(s). Fundamentalism in any form has negative impact on humanity

                          There are different sects and beliefs because people try to interpret scripture to fit their preconceived ideas of what they want it to say.
                          Yes, there are, and clinging to ancient world views is the slippery slope to a world without reason and logic.

                          Look. I have stated my position. I am not ashamed of my position. I stand on scripture as my final authority for everything. I do not worship scripture, I worship the God who gave it to us and I praise Him for His Spirit who enlightens those who desire to learn the truth.
                          OK

                          Call me whatever you will, it doesn't matter to me.
                          'I am a rock and I am an island.'
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-31-2014, 08:11 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shuny
                            Yes, there are, and clinging to ancient world views is the slippery slope to a world without reason and logic.
                            And another misconception about believers from those who are not, and another supposed insult toward us......"flat earthers", illogical, unreasoning, etc.

                            We do not approach things of God leaving our brains at the door. A lot of very smart people have studied for a very long time and come to the conclusion that God is real, that the things He has declared about Himself are true and timeless.

                            It would be nice if people who didn't believe in Him would at least acknowledge the fact that there ARE scholars who have certainly used their logic and reason and their mental capacity to come to the conclusions they have without resorting to simple name calling.

                            Regardless, "fundamentalist", "illogical, unreasoning, clinging to ancient worldviews", whatever. Doesn't matter to me. You don't like the truth, too bad. One day you will know.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              And another misconception about believers from those who are not, and another supposed insult toward us......"flat earthers", illogical, unreasoning, etc.
                              You said before: " Scripture is not ambiguous. It is very clear. And it doesn't contradict itself." The problem is that scripture does indicate a flat earth, covered with a solid firmament across which the sun, moon and stars travel. Should we take that as truth?

                              I am sure you reject that worldview as readily as me, but then YECers compromise the Bible just as a theistic evolutionist does (not that I know where on that spectrum you are). I guess in a sense you are saying this too, as you object to "illogical, unreasoning, clinging to ancient worldviews" as a description for Christians.

                              However, this does leave me wondering how you get from a clear and unambiguous scripture to a round earth. The bible promotes an ancient worldview that you apparently reject.
                              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                                You said before: " Scripture is not ambiguous. It is very clear. And it doesn't contradict itself."
                                If you define scripture as being a subsection of the Bible, that is true.
                                The problem is that scripture does indicate a flat earth, covered with a solid firmament across which the sun, moon and stars travel. Should we take that as truth?
                                Solid firmament not so much, and sun, moon, and stars travelling is acceptable if it is kept in mind that a subjective viewpoint is reasonable, and even if it isn't - there's no denying that all these things do travel.

                                I am sure you reject that worldview as readily as me, but then YECers compromise the Bible just as a theistic evolutionist does (not that I know where on that spectrum you are). I guess in a sense you are saying this too, as you object to "illogical, unreasoning, clinging to ancient worldviews" as a description for Christians.
                                Theistic evolution covers a lot of territory. It is possible to accept evolution theory in its entirety without ditching the smallest part of the Biblical record of creation. It comes unstuck with the flood though.

                                However, this does leave me wondering how you get from a clear and unambiguous scripture to a round earth. The bible promotes an ancient worldview that you apparently reject.
                                You don't - nothing in the Bible declares the Earth to be round. However, nothing unambiguously declares any shape.
                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                                Comment

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