Originally posted by NormATive
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Can we trust what God says?
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Originally posted by whag View PostSeer's languishing in bad apologetics, which only leads to problems with doubt later. What's funny is he advertised that God recently performed a miracle for him to remove his doubt. Wouldn't it make more sense open his mind about the general revelation? That'd be more helpful in the long run because it would exercise his brain.
Presuppositional apologetics fails on so many levels, I am truly surprised anyone still uses it. I think since Dee Dee abandoned ship, we are left with the dregs of T-Web.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostI believe that Seer is sincere in his beliefs, and his dabbling in Van Til apologetics is him coming to the defense of a fellow Christian (Mr. Black). I notice Mr. Black isn't quite as verbose when you turn his techniques back on him.
Presuppositional apologetics fails on so many levels, I am truly surprised anyone still uses it. I think since Dee Dee abandoned ship, we are left with the dregs of T-Web.
NORM
If Christianity is true, I wonder why God couldn't clarify this teleological sticking point for so many of his adherents.
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostSorry about that. I was short on time earlier and accidentally overlooked your earlier post. But I've found it now and will quote you below and respond in kind.
No.
No.
No.
Oh my gosh no. Straw man fallacy. First, I'm not arguing for a god. That's intelligent design. I'm arguing for biblical creationism based on revelational epistemology. I'm arguing specifically for the triune God as revealed in the pages of the Old and New Testaments. Second, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "embodies" then no, God is not embodied in the Created order. While creation is always and everywhere revealing God to man and is upheld by God's consistent power, creation itself is distinct from its Creator.
I'm not making a simplistic argument about information coming from a mind. But just so we're clear, what do you mean by "information"?
Are you saying that there's no such thing as an absolute moral law?
What all minds are you saying morality pre-exists?
Straw man again. This is not an intelligent design argument. This is a transcendental argument for the biblical worldview. All things are from, through, and to God (Romans 11:36). So all facts presuppose the biblical worldview (i.e., require it to be the actual state of affairs in advance), and the God in Whom that worldview is rooted. God is the ontic base which grounds the preconditions of intelligibility, and His revelation of Himself is the epistemology that makes Him known. All people know God already in their heart of hearts and deny Him only by suppressing that truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-22). The outward demonstration of this is the fact that, when you deny Him, you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity. In other words, since He grounds the preconditions of intelligibility, and His self-revelation to man is the only way by which we can know about them, if He did not exist and reveal Himself to mankind, we couldn't know anything (Colossians 2:3,8). Therefore if we don't start with Him and His Word as logically primary in our thinking, we couldn't prove anything.
I gave the argument above. The biblical worldview is the starting point without which no conclusion can be reasoned to at all.
With this argument in mind, Jim, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
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Originally posted by whag View PostMan, you suck at this Christianity thing.
See, whag? You're not even providing an argument now. Just reversible rhetoric, and now you're wasting your energy and my time on personal insults.
Do you have anything of substance to offer in this discussion? Any reasons for your point of view at all?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThis mostly incomprehensible gibberish is no more than to assert that the Bible says so therefore it is so.
Originally posted by JimL View PostThats all your argument amounts to as far as I can see.
Originally posted by JimL View PostAbout everything I claim to know? Nope.Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostMan, you suck at this non-christianity thing.
See, whag? You're not even providing an argument now. Just reversible rhetoric, and now you're wasting your energy and my time on personal insults.
Do you have anything of substance to offer in this discussion? Any reasons for your point of view at all?
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Originally posted by whag View PostThere's nothing more boring and innocuous than a close-minded faith. But the Bible warns against compromise,
Originally posted by whag View PostIf Christianity is true, I wonder why God couldn't clarify this teleological sticking point for so many of his adherents.
By the way, if you can't know anything for sure, how can you know what the Bible supposedly does, or does not, "say"?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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Originally posted by whag View PostNot providing an argument to a YEC is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times (PRATTS).
See? Still all rhetoric and no argument from you.
Where is this alleged "refutation", whag? How can you know what a refutation even is, let alone what my view is, let alone that my view has been "refuted"? You admitted from the start that you don't know anything, and then you've turned around and contradicted yourself in every subsequent response by making knowledge claim after knowledge claim. If you're gonna insist on operating from a worldview that can't justify the simplest knowledge claim, at least be consistent with that worldview and stop making knowledge claims.Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostNot providing an argument to whag is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times
See? Still all rhetoric and no argument from you.
Where is this alleged "refutation", whag? How can you know what a refutation even is, let alone what my view is, let alone that my view has been "refuted"? You admitted from the start that you don't know anything, and then you've turned around and contradicted yourself in every subsequent response by making knowledge claim after knowledge claim. If you're gonna insist on operating from a worldview that can't justify the simplest knowledge claim, at least be consistent with that worldview and stop making knowledge claims.
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Originally posted by Mr. Black View PostThis is the straw man fallacy. I gave the argument quite clearly above, and you've yet to respond to it. My argument is not some inanely simplistic "The Bible says so therefore it is so", rather the argument is "Any/all facts of reality presuppose the biblical worldview (i.e., require it to be the actual state of affairs in advance---which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true). So, the one true God who wrote the Bible said it, and if you reject His revelation of Himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity.
There is no logical argument there, there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!
You should take another look at it.
Great. Thanks for the answer. Please tell me one thing you know for sure, and how you know it.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd the above proves exactly what I said. All your argument does is make assertion after assertion based on the Bible.
Originally posted by JimL View Post"Any/all facts presuppose the biblical world view" "which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true" "So, the one true God who wrote the bible said it" "if you reject his revelation of himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity."
There is no logical argument there, there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!
Also, notice the straw man again, "there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!" Any/all arguments contain assertions. But you mean to imply that the assertsions don't argue for a position, but they do. I explained this in my last comment. The argument is nothing like your straw man "The Bible says so therefore it is so", but rather "the one true God who wrote the Bible said it, and if you reject His revelation of Himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity." Saying that that's not an argument (and saying that you can't be wrong about everything you claim to know) necessarily amounts to saying not only that my argument is unsound, but that my worldview is false. That's an indirect knowledge claim, for which you now the burden of proof. We'll see this below.
Originally posted by JimL View PostI had pasta for dinner this evening.Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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