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Can we trust what God says?

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  • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
    C'mon Whag! Didn't you know that Satan planted all the fossils and evidence just to fool us into a false sense of security? Don't laugh - this was actually an answer the pastor of a church told me when I asked him why the Bible didn't mention dinosaurs. It was the very first chip in my theistic armor.

    Of course, modern apologetics abandons the Satan planting dinosaur bones in the desert theory in favor of the "Bible only concerns itself with the events of mankind" excuse.

    NORM
    Seer's languishing in bad apologetics, which only leads to problems with doubt later. What's funny is he advertised that God recently performed a miracle for him to remove his doubt. Wouldn't it make more sense open his mind about the general revelation? That'd be more helpful in the long run because it would exercise his brain.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by whag View Post
      Seer's languishing in bad apologetics, which only leads to problems with doubt later. What's funny is he advertised that God recently performed a miracle for him to remove his doubt. Wouldn't it make more sense open his mind about the general revelation? That'd be more helpful in the long run because it would exercise his brain.
      I believe that Seer is sincere in his beliefs, and his dabbling in Van Til apologetics is him coming to the defense of a fellow Christian (Mr. Black). I notice Mr. Black isn't quite as verbose when you turn his techniques back on him.

      Presuppositional apologetics fails on so many levels, I am truly surprised anyone still uses it. I think since Dee Dee abandoned ship, we are left with the dregs of T-Web.

      NORM
      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        I believe that Seer is sincere in his beliefs, and his dabbling in Van Til apologetics is him coming to the defense of a fellow Christian (Mr. Black). I notice Mr. Black isn't quite as verbose when you turn his techniques back on him.

        Presuppositional apologetics fails on so many levels, I am truly surprised anyone still uses it. I think since Dee Dee abandoned ship, we are left with the dregs of T-Web.

        NORM
        There's nothing more boring and innocuous than a close-minded faith. But the Bible warns against compromise, though, so I can't really blame them for this heel digging.

        If Christianity is true, I wonder why God couldn't clarify this teleological sticking point for so many of his adherents.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mr. Black View Post
          Sorry about that. I was short on time earlier and accidentally overlooked your earlier post. But I've found it now and will quote you below and respond in kind.



          No.



          No.



          No.



          Oh my gosh no. Straw man fallacy. First, I'm not arguing for a god. That's intelligent design. I'm arguing for biblical creationism based on revelational epistemology. I'm arguing specifically for the triune God as revealed in the pages of the Old and New Testaments. Second, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "embodies" then no, God is not embodied in the Created order. While creation is always and everywhere revealing God to man and is upheld by God's consistent power, creation itself is distinct from its Creator.



          I'm not making a simplistic argument about information coming from a mind. But just so we're clear, what do you mean by "information"?



          Are you saying that there's no such thing as an absolute moral law?



          What all minds are you saying morality pre-exists?




          Straw man again. This is not an intelligent design argument. This is a transcendental argument for the biblical worldview. All things are from, through, and to God (Romans 11:36). So all facts presuppose the biblical worldview (i.e., require it to be the actual state of affairs in advance), and the God in Whom that worldview is rooted. God is the ontic base which grounds the preconditions of intelligibility, and His revelation of Himself is the epistemology that makes Him known. All people know God already in their heart of hearts and deny Him only by suppressing that truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-22). The outward demonstration of this is the fact that, when you deny Him, you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity. In other words, since He grounds the preconditions of intelligibility, and His self-revelation to man is the only way by which we can know about them, if He did not exist and reveal Himself to mankind, we couldn't know anything (Colossians 2:3,8). Therefore if we don't start with Him and His Word as logically primary in our thinking, we couldn't prove anything.



          I gave the argument above. The biblical worldview is the starting point without which no conclusion can be reasoned to at all.
          This mostly incomprehensible gibberish is no more than to assert that the Bible says so therefore it is so. Thats all your argument amounts to as far as I can see.
          With this argument in mind, Jim, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
          About everything I claim to know? Nope.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            Man, you suck at this Christianity thing.
            Man, you suck at this non-christianity thing.
            See, whag? You're not even providing an argument now. Just reversible rhetoric, and now you're wasting your energy and my time on personal insults.
            Do you have anything of substance to offer in this discussion? Any reasons for your point of view at all?
            Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              This mostly incomprehensible gibberish is no more than to assert that the Bible says so therefore it is so.
              This is the straw man fallacy. I gave the argument quite clearly above, and you've yet to respond to it. My argument is not some inanely simplistic "The Bible says so therefore it is so", rather the argument is "Any/all facts of reality presuppose the biblical worldview (i.e., require it to be the actual state of affairs in advance---which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true). So, the one true God who wrote the Bible said it, and if you reject His revelation of Himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity.

              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Thats all your argument amounts to as far as I can see.
              You should take another look at it.

              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              About everything I claim to know? Nope.
              Great. Thanks for the answer. Please tell me one thing you know for sure, and how you know it.
              Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mr. Black View Post
                Man, you suck at this non-christianity thing.
                See, whag? You're not even providing an argument now. Just reversible rhetoric, and now you're wasting your energy and my time on personal insults.
                Do you have anything of substance to offer in this discussion? Any reasons for your point of view at all?
                Not providing an argument to a YEC is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times (PRATTS).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by whag View Post
                  There's nothing more boring and innocuous than a close-minded faith. But the Bible warns against compromise,
                  The Bible warns against irrationality and dishonesty, and says rather that we're to do all things for God's glory (1 Corinthians 1:31), taking every though captive to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), which includes obeying His command to never put Him on trial (Deuteronomy 6:16, reiterated by Jesus in Luke 4:12). Furthermore, since God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13, Ep[hesians 1:21), there can be greater to which to appeal. So no, God's Word doesn't warn against obeying Him.

                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  If Christianity is true, I wonder why God couldn't clarify this teleological sticking point for so many of his adherents.
                  Notice the question-begging assumption here, that if there's disagreement among Christians regarding the message God has sent, then the problem must lie with the sender, and not the receiver. God speaks clearly, but fallen man's sin gets in the way, and men (and women) often go after vain and perverse teachings which they prefer over God's word, with varying degrees of subtlety.

                  By the way, if you can't know anything for sure, how can you know what the Bible supposedly does, or does not, "say"?
                  Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Not providing an argument to a YEC is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times (PRATTS).
                    Not providing an argument to whag is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times
                    See? Still all rhetoric and no argument from you.
                    Where is this alleged "refutation", whag? How can you know what a refutation even is, let alone what my view is, let alone that my view has been "refuted"? You admitted from the start that you don't know anything, and then you've turned around and contradicted yourself in every subsequent response by making knowledge claim after knowledge claim. If you're gonna insist on operating from a worldview that can't justify the simplest knowledge claim, at least be consistent with that worldview and stop making knowledge claims.
                    Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mr. Black View Post
                      Not providing an argument to whag is like not providing an argument to a flat earther. All you have are Points Refuted A Thousand Times
                      See? Still all rhetoric and no argument from you.
                      Where is this alleged "refutation", whag? How can you know what a refutation even is, let alone what my view is, let alone that my view has been "refuted"? You admitted from the start that you don't know anything, and then you've turned around and contradicted yourself in every subsequent response by making knowledge claim after knowledge claim. If you're gonna insist on operating from a worldview that can't justify the simplest knowledge claim, at least be consistent with that worldview and stop making knowledge claims.
                      Actually, now that I think of it, you might be right.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mr. Black View Post
                        This is the straw man fallacy. I gave the argument quite clearly above, and you've yet to respond to it. My argument is not some inanely simplistic "The Bible says so therefore it is so", rather the argument is "Any/all facts of reality presuppose the biblical worldview (i.e., require it to be the actual state of affairs in advance---which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true). So, the one true God who wrote the Bible said it, and if you reject His revelation of Himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity.
                        And the above proves exactly what I said. All your argument does is make assertion after assertion based on the Bible. "Any/all facts presuppose the biblical world view" "which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true" "So, the one true God who wrote the bible said it" "if you reject his revelation of himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity."
                        There is no logical argument there, there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!

                        You should take another look at it.
                        See above.


                        Great. Thanks for the answer. Please tell me one thing you know for sure, and how you know it.
                        I had pasta for dinner this evening.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mr. Black View Post
                          Please tell me one thing you know for sure, and how you know it.
                          Samson killed 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post



                            I had pasta for dinner this evening.
                            Did you directly observe it before shoveling it in your face?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by whag View Post
                              Did you directly observe it before shoveling it in your face?
                              I even made it myself of 100% duram wheat mixed with water. At least I think i did!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                And the above proves exactly what I said. All your argument does is make assertion after assertion based on the Bible.
                                I get the feeling you don't have much experience with transcendental arguments...


                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                "Any/all facts presuppose the biblical world view" "which means it doesn't just happen to be true, but is necessarily true" "So, the one true God who wrote the bible said it" "if you reject his revelation of himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity."
                                There is no logical argument there, there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!
                                This demonstrates your lack of knowledge when it comes to transcendental arguments. I realize that that type of argument is a bit different than inductive and deductive arguments, and some uncomfortability can ensue when one is used. But its irrational to say that its therefore not an argument. What I've provided above is in fact an argument. You may not like the nature of the argument, but that does not make it a non-argument, nor does it make the argument go away.
                                Also, notice the straw man again, "there is nothing there but a string of unfounded assertions!" Any/all arguments contain assertions. But you mean to imply that the assertsions don't argue for a position, but they do. I explained this in my last comment. The argument is nothing like your straw man "The Bible says so therefore it is so", but rather "the one true God who wrote the Bible said it, and if you reject His revelation of Himself to mankind you end up with a worldview that reduces to absurdity." Saying that that's not an argument (and saying that you can't be wrong about everything you claim to know) necessarily amounts to saying not only that my argument is unsound, but that my worldview is false. That's an indirect knowledge claim, for which you now the burden of proof. We'll see this below.


                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                I had pasta for dinner this evening.
                                How do you know that you had pasta for dinner?
                                Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (1 Corinthians 1:20)

                                Comment

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