Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Religion: Better For Moral Health Of Community?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    derp
    Yeah, derp.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Yup - it's a dictatorship, and the dominion is freely entered into. If you want what is on offer, it is available - provisional upon unconditional surrender: the person who chooses what is on offer doesn't get to negotiate terms. There is a context for the "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" - that "every" is bounded by "we" (who have chosen what is on offer). It is not an unlimited "every".
      Checking the passage from Isaiah which is cited in Romans 14:11 also shows that the "every" is bounded; the next sentence stating that those who do not will be ashamed.
      Yes, exactly...those who do not will be punished...made to feel shame, to be ashamed. Of course, you, like others, are missing the point. If someone is reading the text, they may very well understand it to mean a certain thing which is not entirely positive for them. It's not paranoid to do so. The expectation you seem to have, is that everyone who reads a text, interprets it the same way a committed Christian does. Those who have dedicated their life to Christ are going to feel things differently than those who have not, and who do not wish to do so. It's all relative. Even someone who is an ex-believer so-to-speak, may not be interpreting or "receiving" the text in the same light as someone who is a current believer.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotSoHumblePie View Post
        Yes, exactly...those who do not will be punished...made to feel shame, to be ashamed. Of course, you, like others, are missing the point. If someone is reading the text, they may very well understand it to mean a certain thing which is not entirely positive for them. It's not paranoid to do so. The expectation you seem to have, is that everyone who reads a text, interprets it the same way a committed Christian does. Those who have dedicated their life to Christ are going to feel things differently than those who have not, and who do not wish to do so. It's all relative. Even someone who is an ex-believer so-to-speak, may not be interpreting or "receiving" the text in the same light as someone who is a current believer.
        There are even groups who claim to be Christian (e.g. Westboro) who reinterpret Biblical statements. That doesn't change what has been said: only what has been heard.
        Everything in Revelation and in the epistles is set against the background of the gospel, the relevant part of which for the topic at hand, is "The world is perishing and all that is in it: save yourselves. God sent his only begotten son that all who receive* him may not perish, but have eternal life."
        (* take up what is offered.)
        No-one can be forced to believe that inoculation will preserve him from this or that fatal disease, and there are many who prefer to believe an alternative message.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotSoHumblePie View Post
          Would you say that my life now is without God? If so, I'd like to keep it. If that is what is meant by me getting what I want, I'm happy with that. I have no interest in God even if the thing that is said to be God does exist. I just want to relax.
          No, in one sense your present life is not without God since he up holds all things. And second, there is the universal work of the Holy Spirit influencing men for good. And third, we have a God given conscience. Yes, remove those influences for good and what you have will be hell.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No, in one sense your present life is not without God since he up holds all things. And second, there is the universal work of the Holy Spirit influencing men for good. And third, we have a God given conscience. Yes, remove those influences for good and what you have will be hell.
            Are you saying that the only reason men do good, is because they are influenced by the Holy Spirit to do good? When you say that God holds all things up, does that mean upon his absence things will no longer be held up? What does that mean exactly? That the universe will disappear? I don't get what you mean by "holds all things up", and I need to know what you mean in order to understand what it might mean to take that away.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              There are even groups who claim to be Christian (e.g. Westboro) who reinterpret Biblical statements. That doesn't change what has been said: only what has been heard.
              Everything in Revelation and in the epistles is set against the background of the gospel, the relevant part of which for the topic at hand, is "The world is perishing and all that is in it: save yourselves. God sent his only begotten son that all who receive* him may not perish, but have eternal life."
              (* take up what is offered.)
              No-one can be forced to believe that inoculation will preserve him from this or that fatal disease, and there are many who prefer to believe an alternative message.
              As I mentioned previously, because the interpretation can be different, there is a lack of consistency. This extends well beyond simply revelation. Revelation was brought into the topic when people began speaking about the ushering in a theocracy. When someone said that they believed there is a suggestion in the text that this is what will happen, that person was called paranoid. My point was that this person is entitled to interpret the language however they wish to do so, especially someone who does not know anything about Christianity (I'm not saying NormATive does not, I'm just making a general statement).

              My overall point, which has now been buried under pages of us trying to get past what it means to interpret something, was that if anything can be interpreted in religious texts, that makes them no more valid a resource for providing moral health in a community. Not only can revelation be interpreted differently, but so can the actual "rules for behavior", which is what's really important with regard to the moral health of a community. Some people are literalists, others are suppositionalists, and so on. With the Mosaic Law presented in Leviticus, there are so many different schools of thought between individual Christians, that it's impossible to come to a conclusion about "right behavior" that would remain consistent across the board.

              Some Christians believe it's wrong to engage in homosexuality, others do not. Some Christians believe it's wrong for a woman to attend services without a head covering. In other words, some people are strict literalists and believe that Levitican law should be precisely followed, and others do not. No Christian can claim their way is the right way, without dismissing the others through a justification that would simultaneously defeat their own.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotSoHumblePie View Post
                Are you saying that the only reason men do good, is because they are influenced by the Holy Spirit to do good? When you say that God holds all things up, does that mean upon his absence things will no longer be held up? What does that mean exactly? That the universe will disappear? I don't get what you mean by "holds all things up", and I need to know what you mean in order to understand what it might mean to take that away.

                Yes certainly, without God's constant influence we would tend towards absolute selfishness and evil and the universe would no longer exist.

                Rom.2

                All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

                Heb.1

                In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

                Col. 1

                He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
                Last edited by seer; 09-02-2014, 07:45 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotSoHumblePie View Post
                  Even to you, eh?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotSoHumblePie View Post
                    As I mentioned previously, because the interpretation can be different, there is a lack of consistency. This extends well beyond simply revelation. Revelation was brought into the topic when people began speaking about the ushering in a theocracy. When someone said that they believed there is a suggestion in the text that this is what will happen, that person was called paranoid. My point was that this person is entitled to interpret the language however they wish to do so, especially someone who does not know anything about Christianity (I'm not saying NormATive does not, I'm just making a general statement).


                    That's right, common rules of interpretation, that exist with every other kind of literature on the planet, don't apply to the Bible because that would mean that you were wrong and admitting you are wrong is beyond your abilities. I guess if your argument is that you are 'entitled to interpret the language however you wish' I can interpretation yours to mean that you have admitting that you're just a sad little troll and when you say, "I never said that." I guess I can respond with that I am entitled to interpret your post however I want since you have thrown the rules out the window because they tell you things you don't want to hear. Still can't see how your own arguments are self refuting and totally dumb, eh? It's ok, you've already admitted you're wrong because I can make you say whatever I want you to say and can ignore everything I was taught for my entire schooling about proper interpretation of words such as you have clearly done when you start talking about the Bible. Do yourself a favor, stop talking. It would make you look a lot smarter.

                    My overall point, which has now been buried under pages of us trying to get past what it means to interpret something, was that if anything can be interpreted in religious texts, that makes them no more valid a resource for providing moral health in a community. Not only can revelation be interpreted differently, but so can the actual "rules for behavior", which is what's really important with regard to the moral health of a community. Some people are literalists, others are suppositionalists, and so on. With the Mosaic Law presented in Leviticus, there are so many different schools of thought between individual Christians, that it's impossible to come to a conclusion about "right behavior" that would remain consistent across the board.
                    Yep, common rules of interpretation, should be ignored because they tell you things you don't want to hear and the only real examples you can dig up are a bunch of cult groups that almost nobody takes seriously. Once an idiot, always an idiot, eh?

                    Some Christians believe it's wrong to engage in homosexuality, others do not. Some Christians believe it's wrong for a woman to attend services without a head covering. In other words, some people are strict literalists and believe that Levitican law should be precisely followed, and others do not. No Christian can claim their way is the right way, without dismissing the others through a justification that would simultaneously defeat their own.
                    You mean you are wrong? Yep, I can make you say whatever I please because rules of interpretation don't matter to the fundy atheist, so they don't matter to me. Hope you enjoy the reductio ad absurdum that your arguments lead to. Do yourself a favor, stop talking and start using that head of yours for something more than a hat rack. Words can't mean whatever you want them to mean, no matter how hard you want to claim otherwise.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      The Greek exomologeō means to acknowledge openly, is translated 8 times in the NT as confess, or profess in THE KJV.



                      Of course it is a choice. Do not most choices have consequences? You can choose to violate the law or follow the law. One choice will keep you out of prison the other won't. The fact is God will remove all those who willingly choose not to participate in the coming civil society. Which is a good thing - all evil, hate and discord will be gone.
                      Seer is correct. This is what ISIS is currently doing / establishing in their hoped-for Islamic State. Christians and other infidels are given the opportunity to repent and confess faith in the one True Allah - or die. Just as in your worldview you've just described (although, in the ISIS example, death is quick and painless). Some converts to Islam do so happily and others will suffer the consequences of ignoring the Truth. So, it's not really theism - those who deny the Truth of Islam made their own free will choice.

                      This is all I've been trying to say. Thanks, Seer, for making it so clear.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                        Seer is correct. This is what ISIS is currently doing / establishing in their hoped-for Islamic State. Christians and other infidels are given the opportunity to repent and confess faith in the one True Allah - or die. Just as in your worldview you've just described (although, in the ISIS example, death is quick and painless). Some converts to Islam do so happily and others will suffer the consequences of ignoring the Truth. So, it's not really theism - those who deny the Truth of Islam made their own free will choice.

                        This is all I've been trying to say. Thanks, Seer, for making it so clear.

                        NORM
                        Translation: *sticks fingers in ears and screams* "I'm right and I don't need evidence. Biblical interpretation? Nobody agrees with my insanity? Christian history doesn't support it? I'm a paranoid idiot that doesn't have a clue what he's talking about? Who cares! I can say whatever I want and I don't need evidence to support my delusions with because evidence doesn't matter because I hate Christianity and anything is better than admitting I'm wrong!"

                        Keep those fingers firmly jammed in your ears Norm and all that nasty evidence stuff that says you're a paranoid idiot will disappear into a puff of smoke! Go ahead Norm, show us that Revelation was taken literal by anybody beyond your group of fundy Christians. Can you support that or is your paranoia and hate all you have left?
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment

                        Related Threads

                        Collapse

                        Topics Statistics Last Post
                        Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                        39 responses
                        186 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post whag
                        by whag
                         
                        Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                        21 responses
                        132 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                        Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                        80 responses
                        428 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post tabibito  
                        Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                        45 responses
                        305 views
                        1 like
                        Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                        Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                        406 responses
                        2,517 views
                        2 likes
                        Last Post tabibito  
                        Working...
                        X