Sorry, not a thread about an insight I had with regards to taking out a young lady, but about the date of composition of Revelation.
I had always assumed that the Book of Revelation was written comparatively lately - perhaps because it is the last book in the Bible - and it is usually dated to about AD 95. Reading it recently, I was struck by how very Jewish it is, which made me wonder if it was written rather earlier.
By Jewish, I mean that it prophesies great things for the Jewish people. In theme, it is like Isaiah. when Isaiah was writing, the Jews were in Babylonian captivity, and Isaiah's prophesies can be considered wishful thinking about how he hopes the Jews will become great again, while their current masters will be brought down and will suffer greatly. The author of the Book of Revelation, let us call him John for convenience, was writing when the Jews were under the Romans, and his prophesy is wishful thinking of exactly the same nature.
By the time the gospels are written, Christianity is as gentile as it is Jewish, and a prophesy of this nature would seem out of place (not impossible, but rather unlikely).
As the gospel message evolved, there was a shifting of blame for the crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews, as Christianity more and more targeted pagans rather than Jews and was composed of gentuiles not Jews (Mark has the Sanhedrin instigating Jesus' arrest, by John it is the Jews in general who are after Jesus). Revelation, though, is a very pro-Jewish work. Chapter seven makes it clear that those who will be saved are all Jewish:
This fits well with Revelation being written early.
I came across this page discussing the dating, which seemed to take the same view:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html
This assumes Revelation was write by John the Evangelist. I am not at all convinced that that is the case.
This does indeed seem good evidence. It could be that a later author is trying to fool us in this way, but really there does not seem to be much point, and I find that very unlikely. On the other hand, the author does have an unhealthy obsession with the number seven, and this could very easily be the reason for him citing seven churches.
I think that is more likely evidence it was written after that time, but probably not much long after. Curiously the article concludes: "If the Apostle John was banished to Patmos under the reign of Nero, as the internal evidence indicates, he wrote the book of Revelation about AD 68 or 69, which was after the death of that emperor; but the gospels and epistles some years later." That seems more reasonable to me.
I agree that this dates it to before the fall of the Jewish Temple.
I appreciate that an atheist arguing for earlier dating of scripture is unorthodox, but I wondered what people thought.
I had always assumed that the Book of Revelation was written comparatively lately - perhaps because it is the last book in the Bible - and it is usually dated to about AD 95. Reading it recently, I was struck by how very Jewish it is, which made me wonder if it was written rather earlier.
By Jewish, I mean that it prophesies great things for the Jewish people. In theme, it is like Isaiah. when Isaiah was writing, the Jews were in Babylonian captivity, and Isaiah's prophesies can be considered wishful thinking about how he hopes the Jews will become great again, while their current masters will be brought down and will suffer greatly. The author of the Book of Revelation, let us call him John for convenience, was writing when the Jews were under the Romans, and his prophesy is wishful thinking of exactly the same nature.
By the time the gospels are written, Christianity is as gentile as it is Jewish, and a prophesy of this nature would seem out of place (not impossible, but rather unlikely).
As the gospel message evolved, there was a shifting of blame for the crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews, as Christianity more and more targeted pagans rather than Jews and was composed of gentuiles not Jews (Mark has the Sanhedrin instigating Jesus' arrest, by John it is the Jews in general who are after Jesus). Revelation, though, is a very pro-Jewish work. Chapter seven makes it clear that those who will be saved are all Jewish:
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
I came across this page discussing the dating, which seemed to take the same view:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html
The first point to consider in favor of the early date is the fact that John was told that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings" in Revelation 10:11. Now, if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been over 90 years old and it would have been very difficult for him to travel to the various "nations and many kings" and preach. However, with Revelation written earlier, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling would have been more feasible.
Another point is that John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked (even though it has been by many scholars). There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.
Of particular importance is the message to the church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's 10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and that they should hold fast. The reason this is important (besides the fact that this was directed to an actual church in the first century) is that the first persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written before that time.
One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!
Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
I appreciate that an atheist arguing for earlier dating of scripture is unorthodox, but I wondered what people thought.
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