Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

God’s Word?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • God’s Word?

    Is it physically possible for The Bible or any part of its content, even in the autographs, to be inerrant?

    God as Editor – if God proof reads scripture and makes corrections then we can be sure that it accurately represents His history, diary and opinions. Alternately, He could write scripture in His own hand like He did with the Ten Commandments.

    God as Inspiration – if God inspires the writer, human fallibility is a factor. Anyone reading this could be similarly inspired and so you can ask yourself what God’s word would sound like. What is inspiration? How do you know when you are inspired? What stops people from writing God inspired literature in the present day? Is it possible that modern God inspired literature does exist but it is not recognised as such because of conservative opinions in The Church?

    My own view is that the Bible authors thought they were inspired by God, said so in their writings, and Christians take them at their word, as a matter of faith. This process could be repeated many times and it is purely tradition and conservatism that prevents more revelation. The important thing about revelation is that the person receiving it believes that it is Divine in nature. Your comments and opinions would be most welcome?
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Is it physically possible for The Bible or any part of its content, even in the autographs, to be inerrant?

    God as Editor – if God proof reads scripture and makes corrections then we can be sure that it accurately represents His history, diary and opinions. Alternately, He could write scripture in His own hand like He did with the Ten Commandments.

    God as Inspiration – if God inspires the writer, human fallibility is a factor. Anyone reading this could be similarly inspired and so you can ask yourself what God’s word would sound like. What is inspiration? How do you know when you are inspired? What stops people from writing God inspired literature in the present day? Is it possible that modern God inspired literature does exist but it is not recognised as such because of conservative opinions in The Church?

    My own view is that the Bible authors thought they were inspired by God, said so in their writings, and Christians take them at their word, as a matter of faith. This process could be repeated many times and it is purely tradition and conservatism that prevents more revelation. The important thing about revelation is that the person receiving it believes that it is Divine in nature. Your comments and opinions would be most welcome?
    First, I don't know if scripture is inerrant. Or that it needs to be, to be generally accurate and reliable. I suppose that an all powerful Creator could cause the writers to be perfectly accurate. But I don't know if that is how God worked. As far as inspiration today, I think it is possible, but I would have to look at specific texts - if it contradicts the Bible then I would reject it. The Catholic Church has added non-biblical doctrines over the years like the assumption of Mary that are not found directly in Scripture but do not contradict scripture. I'm not Catholic but I don't believe that such doctrines really bear on the core message of practice and faith, so are rather harmless.
    Last edited by seer; 01-22-2014, 10:19 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      where's the amen button when you need it?
      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
      George Bernard Shaw

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
        where's the amen button when you need it?
        AMEN!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          First, I don't know if scripture is inerrant. Or that it needs to be, to be generally accurate and reliable. I suppose that an all powerful Creator could cause the writers to be perfectly accurate. But I don't know if that is how God worked. As far as inspiration today, I think it is possible, but I would have to look at specific texts - if it contradicts the Bible then I would reject it. The Catholic Church has added non-biblical doctrines over the years like the assumption of Mary that are not found directly in Scripture but do not contradict scripture. I'm not Catholic but I don't believe that such doctrines really bear on the core message of practice and faith, so are rather harmless.
          I am beginning to think that the whole New Testament is based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve. I don’t think Adam falls but instead is a heroic figure that actually comes out on top having acquired wisdom that he did not previously possess. Was this in fact a challenge deliberately set for him by God? All mythical heroes do the very thing that is forbidden to them – there is no story otherwise.

          God acknowledges Adam’s new power by saying that he has become like one of us and before he can grow even stronger by eating of the tree of life, expels him from the garden. God fears Adam so much that He has to protect the tree of life from capture. What do you think?
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            The following was the only part of the post that really had something substantial to be answered.

            Originally posted by firstfloor
            God as Inspiration – if God inspires the writer, human fallibility is a factor.
            No, this is a non sequitur. The OT and NT show that this isn't the case if one pays attention. First off, all Scripture is God breathed, meaning that it's as good as if it came directly from God.

            2 Timothy 3:16
            All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

            All of God's words are perfect.

            Psalm 18:30
            As for God, his way is perfect: The Lord’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

            Jesus took Scripture as the ultimate authority in every dispute, even against Satan who was misusing it.

            Matthew 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

            4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

            For a Christian this should be more than enough to accept Scripture as inerrant, although I know many don't.

            Anyone reading this could be similarly inspired and so you can ask yourself what God’s word would sound like.
            Well, that's the thing, certain things were considered to be inspired that were not Scripture, nor inerrant. That's not really the point of this post is it? Let's put it this way, it would agree with what's already been revealed.

            What is inspiration?
            Biblical inspiration would be when the Holy Spirit is indwelling the author, guiding, but not in a mechanical way(they aren't being used like puppets), what is being written. Allowing the person's style to come through, but preventing error and falsehood from entering what's being written.

            How do you know when you are inspired?
            I'm not sure a person can truly know that.

            What stops people from writing God inspired literature in the present day?
            Nothing. Of course He likely wouldn't be doing the writing, only the inspiration.

            Is it possible that modern God inspired literature does exist but it is not recognised as such because of conservative opinions in The Church?
            I'd say it's only the lesser form of inspiration exists. I'd say this is merely when timeless truths are being relayed. I really don't think it's opinions of the Church stopping such a recognition. If inspiration on the Biblical level was happening, those who know the voice of their Lord would recognize it.

            John 10:3-5
            New International Version (NIV)
            3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              I am beginning to think that the whole New Testament is based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve. I don’t think Adam falls but instead is a heroic figure that actually comes out on top having acquired wisdom that he did not previously possess. Was this in fact a challenge deliberately set for him by God? All mythical heroes do the very thing that is forbidden to them – there is no story otherwise.
              So you think Jesus mistakenly died to save us from nothing? That Adam is the real hero? This shows an immense lack of understanding of both the OT and NT.

              God acknowledges Adam’s new power by saying that he has become like one of us and before he can grow even stronger by eating of the tree of life, expels him from the garden. God fears Adam so much that He has to protect the tree of life from capture. What do you think?
              Nope. God still loving Adam promised a way out of the sinful state(the seed of the woman that crushes the head of the serpent). Death being both a punishment, and a mercy. It would be the only way Christ could come and undo the curse.
              You are misunderstanding the text on a profound level. God has nothing to fear. Certainly not Adam. Especially since Adam would only gain eternal life by eating from the tree of life. He would have had that anyway had he not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                I am beginning to think that the whole New Testament is based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve. I don’t think Adam falls but instead is a heroic figure that actually comes out on top having acquired wisdom that he did not previously possess. Was this in fact a challenge deliberately set for him by God? All mythical heroes do the very thing that is forbidden to them – there is no story otherwise.

                God acknowledges Adam’s new power by saying that he has become like one of us and before he can grow even stronger by eating of the tree of life, expels him from the garden. God fears Adam so much that He has to protect the tree of life from capture. What do you think?
                I think what I always think - you are daft.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I think what I always think - you are daft.
                  Well, I wasn’t expecting immediate concurrence but I am pretty sure it is not so outlandish. I must find out about the Jewish perspective on this story.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Well, I wasn’t expecting immediate concurrence but I am pretty sure it is not so outlandish. I must find out about the Jewish perspective on this story.
                    Really FF, no Jewish or Christian scholar is going to agree that God somehow feared Adam...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      Well, I wasn’t expecting immediate concurrence but I am pretty sure it is not so outlandish. I must find out about the Jewish perspective on this story.
                      Your only hope for finding such an interpretation is from those who were clearly heretics. Even then, your probably not going to find much.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Is it physically possible for The Bible or any part of its content, even in the autographs, to be inerrant? . . .
                        Inerrancy goes with God being Himself inerrant. So therefore His words would be inerrant.

                        What inerrancy is not:
                        1) It is not the ability of the reader to inerrantly read God's word.

                        2) It is not inerrant translation of God's word.

                        3) It is not the known variants in the hand copies of God's word.

                        "Every word of God is pure: . . ." -- Proverbs 30.5.

                        "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." -- Psalm 19:7.

                        "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." -- Psalm 119:89.

                        The problems called Biblical errancy have 3 causes:
                        1) Is always an issue of interpretation.

                        2) Can be a problem do to translation.

                        3) Can be a problem do to a known textual variants.

                        Without exception, one or any combination can be shown to be at issue.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          I am beginning to think that the whole New Testament is based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve. I don’t think Adam falls but instead is a heroic figure that actually comes out on top having acquired wisdom that he did not previously possess. Was this in fact a challenge deliberately set for him by God? All mythical heroes do the very thing that is forbidden to them – there is no story otherwise.

                          God acknowledges Adam’s new power by saying that he has become like one of us and before he can grow even stronger by eating of the tree of life, expels him from the garden. God fears Adam so much that He has to protect the tree of life from capture. What do you think?
                          A short answer:

                          The fall of Adam and Eve was do to Adam disobeying (Genesis 1:17, " . . . the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . . ." Romans 5:19, ". . . For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, . . . ")

                          And it was the acquiring of God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22) which causes mankind to have a sinful nature. Man created good, only being finite being (Genesis 1:26, 31). The knowledge of evil corrupts mankind, and the knowledge of good condemns mankind before God. God being infinite good.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            A short answer:
                            The fall of Adam and Eve was do to Adam disobeying (Genesis 1:17, " . . . the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: . . . ." Romans 5:19, ". . . For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, . . . ")
                            And it was the acquiring of God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22) which causes mankind to have a sinful nature. Man created good, only being finite being (Genesis 1:26, 31). The knowledge of evil corrupts mankind, and the knowledge of good condemns mankind before God. God being infinite good.
                            Genesis is hundreds of years older than the New Testament so it is not appropriate to look for an explanation of it in the New Testament.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              Genesis is hundreds of years older than the New Testament so it is not appropriate to look for an explanation of it in the New Testament.
                              Why not? IIRC Jews weren't into theological innovation. For them, if it was new, it wasn't good, and if it was good, it wasn't new. Much of the ANE felt the same IIRC.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by lee_merrill, 10-30-2020, 09:01 PM
                              28 responses
                              120 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by Whateverman, 07-26-2020, 11:01 AM
                              330 responses
                              6,602 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Electric Skeptic  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                              1,252 responses
                              55,029 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X