GR Morton's Biblical Mediterranean Fllod Model

[shunyadragon]

Evidence of such tools would be buried under sediment and water. Moreover, if I understand correctly, dating the tools would be rather problematic anyway.

The descendants of Noah would have and make the tools after the flood. There is no such sophisticated stone tools found before ~10,000 BCE, and significant functional tools capable of Arc building were not available until ~3,000 BCE (Advent of the Bronze Age).

[Truthseeker]

The descendants of Noah would have and make the tools after the flood. There is no such sophisticated stone tools found before ~10,000 BCE, and significant functional tools capable of Arc building were not available until ~3,000 BCE (Advent of the Bronze Age).

Clovis arrowheads dated to 13,500 years ago. You consider them NOT sophisticated, but people able to make them could make adzes and axes as well. That's sharp logic for you! Still, 5 million years ago is quite a stretch, all right.

[shunyadragon]

Clovis arrowheads dated to 13,500 years ago. You consider them NOT sophisticated, but people able to make them could make adzes and axes as well. That's sharp logic for you! Still, 5 million years ago is quite a stretch, all right.

No not sophisticated, arrowheads and spear points are common in different styles throughout the Paleolithic. We still lack the sophistication of the adz anywhere.

The oldest known timber shaping used in construction is 5600 to 4900 years ago.

Source: http://www.surprising.uni-freiburg.de/en/themenbibliothek/themen-archiv/oldest-timber-constructions

A research team led by Willy Tegel and Dr. Dietrich Hakelberg from the Institute for Forest Growth of the University of Freiburg has succeeded in precisely dating four water wells built by the first Central European agricultural civilization with the help of dendrochronology or growth ring dating. The wells were excavated at settlements in the Greater Leipzig region and are the oldest known timber constructions in the world. They were built by the Linear Pottery culture, which existed from roughly 5600 to 4900 BC. The team’s findings, which have been published in the international scientific journal PLoS ONE, afford new insight into prehistoric technology. The study was conducted by archaeologists and dendrochronologists from the Institute for Forest Growth in Freiburg, the Archaeological Heritage Office of Saxony in Dresden, and the Swiss Federal Research Institute WSL in Birmensdorf, Switzerland.

© Copyright Original Source

[Doug Shaver]

POSSIBILITIES:
Noah might simply be a fable.
Noah might be an embellished pre-historical account.

In keeping with scientific method, only the known facts can be asserted, with speculation granting lines of enquiry and nothing more.

The fable hypothesis is simpler, by far, and none of the known facts is inconsistent with it.

[Truthseeker]

The fable hypothesis is simpler, by far, and none of the known facts is inconsistent with it.

Oakham's razor. So, you rule out the account in the Bible as easy as that [snaps fingers].

[Truthseeker]

No not sophisticated, arrowheads and spear points are common in different styles throughout the Paleolithic. We still lack the sophistication of the adz anywhere.

Spearheads could just as well as be knife blades. One could do plenty of woodworking with knives. Incidentally, how were those bone carvings made? When?

[tabibito]

Given the history of the Pentateuch, the possibility of the fable hypothesis being accurate can't be discounted.
Evidence is strong that it was assembled from a patchwork of lore and written material. Internal evidence of Deuteronomy, if none of the other books, shows that it was written after the time of Moses, and probably some generations after.

[shunyadragon]

Spearheads could just as well as be knife blades. One could do plenty of woodworking with knives. Incidentally, how were those bone carvings made? When?

As with the reference of timber shaping, you need the technology for making large timbers, and ways to join these timbers to make something as huge as the Arc. The reference showed a relatively small timber construction. No, spearheads and knife blades will not cut it. Bone carvings were made and shaped by abrasion techniques using primitive stone tools.

[Teallaura]

Abrasion techniques will work just fine on wood - and without knowing exactly how they were joined it's stupid to argue for a particular tool set.

[shunyadragon]

Abrasion techniques will work just fine on wood - and without knowing exactly how they were joined it's stupid to argue for a particular tool set.

No problem in ancient China they have found the stone tool set used to abrade Ivory, bone and other stones. Actually this is far from the topic of the high technology required to shape timbers and link them together to make anything, nonetheless a huge Arc.

Glenn used a comparison of the Bible account and what he considered the circumstances of the inundation of the Mediterranean 5.3 million years with the hypothesis that ALL of the pre- human Homos were living in the basin based on what he felt was necessary to explain the whipping out of this population except for the descendants Noah, his family, and his companions. The largest flaw is of course the known primitive state of ancestors of humanity at this time. It could be proposed, like Atlantis, that the evidence is buried beneath the sediment at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea. Glenn in his paper gives no further justification concerning the problem of the limits of the technology of the cultures that are known to exist at this time.

Again, the survivors and descendants of Noah would have carried the tools and technology with them after the flood. There is absolutely no evidence before ~5000 BCE that any such technology was available.

[Teallaura]

Still assumes facts not in evidence - you don't know how they were joined so saying the technology didn't exist is dumb.

Joinery from stone will work on wood. Anything that can shape stone can shape wood (sometimes better) - so if they could shape stone they could shape wood.

Coping isn't really so much technology as it is patience and persistence - and for most wood joinery involved in ship building coping is part of the process (ditto log cabins esp. when people care what they are doing). Joining really big timbers isn't the technical hurdle - it's not that hard to shape wood. Moving the danged things is the hard part.

It's silly to argue that they couldn't do X when the technology doesn't have to be exceptionally advanced.

[Truthseeker]

Given the history of the Pentateuch, the possibility of the fable hypothesis being accurate can't be discounted.

OK, so it isn't disproven. So, you conclude that the Bible is 100% myth?

Evidence is strong that it was assembled from a patchwork of lore and written material.

Not quite correct, but there were most likely many authors spread out over centuries. Anyway, so, did you conclude from that evidence that the Bible is 100% myth?

Internal evidence of Deuteronomy, if none of the other books, shows that it was written after the time of Moses, and probably some generations after.

That is only an inference from what is in the Bible. A loose inference, with which many Bible scholars disagree. How do we know you were not strongly biased to read evidence as the Bible being 100% myth?

[shunyadragon]

Still assumes facts not in evidence

No assumption of fact, just conclusions based on the evidence. It is you who are making assumptions with no evidence.

- you don't know how they were joined so saying the technology didn't exist is dumb.

Joinery from stone will work on wood. Anything that can shape stone can shape wood (sometimes better) - so if they could shape stone they could shape wood.

Coping isn't really so much technology as it is patience and persistence - and for most wood joinery involved in ship building coping is part of the process (ditto log cabins esp. when people care what they are doing). Joining really big timbers isn't the technical hurdle - it's not that hard to shape wood. Moving the danged things is the hard part.

It's silly to argue that they couldn't do X when the technology doesn't have to be exceptionally advanced.

If you feel it is 'not exceptionally advance,' Where is the evidence of any such technology before ~5600 BCE? Any vessels found before this date are dugout canoes made by the burnout technique.

The evidence remains that ship building is a technology that did not exist actually until the first Egyptian ship ~2500 BCE and the first Sea going vessel from Dover, England in ~about 1500 BCE.

Talk is cheap!!!! Where's the evidence?!?!?

[Truthseeker]

As with the reference of timber shaping, you need the technology for making large timbers, and ways to join these timbers to make something as huge as the Arc. The reference showed a relatively small timber construction. No, spearheads and knife blades will not cut it. Bone carvings were made and shaped by abrasion techniques using primitive stone tools.

I have been thinking about the possibility of training a gang of chimps to construct log cabins. If that group could do that, they could build the ark as well. All the ark needs to be able to is to just float, mind you. I don't know how smart Noah and his people were as compared to us modern humans, but maybe they can build log cabins better or quicker than those chimps, or an ark.

The ark's bottom could be a raft-like construction. Not sure what kind of rope or cordage Noah could use, though.

[shunyadragon]

I have been thinking about the possibility of training a gang of chimps to construct log cabins. If that group could do that, they could build the ark as well. All the ark needs to be able to is to just float, mind you. I don't know how smart Noah and his people were as compared to us modern humans, but maybe they can build log cabins better or quicker than those chimps, or an ark.

Who would you propose to train the chimps if the technology does not exist?

The ark's bottom could be a raft-like construction. Not sure what kind of rope or cordage Noah could use, though.

Does not work for a ship that size. It would basically fall apart.