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GR Morton's Biblical Mediterranean Fllod Model

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  • GR Morton's Biblical Mediterranean Fllod Model

    It has been some time since, years, since I had a dialogue with Glenn concerning his proposal on the old Tweb that the flooding of the Mediterranean fits the 'required' Flood for the Biblical Flood. I had actually had forgotten which flood he was defending for a Biblical flood. Nonetheless I am prepared to go over his article defending his proposal, and give my reasoning for rejecting it.

    He opens the article with the following which I agree with:

    Source: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1997/PSCF12-97Morton.html

    The Bible is unique among the world's religious writings in its dependence upon critical historical events. Without the creation, without Adam and Eve, without the historical events of the Fall, without the incarnation, and without the resurrection, Christianity is left in shambles. These events have traditionally been viewed as actual events in space-time and are intimately intertwined in Christian theology. In short, Christianity is a historically based religion and as such, the events depicted in the Scriptures must be historically verifiable.

    There is one other important historical event mentioned in the Bible and that is the Flood of Noah. The Flood, while not crucial to the theological basis of Christianity (a Christianity lacking the text describing a historical flood would still be the same), is crucial to the veracity of the scriptural documents. The Flood story is related to us by the same document that informs us of three of the five crucial Christian doctrines. If science were to conclude that no flood occurred, then serious doubt would be cast upon the authority of the Scripture and, thus, on the historicity of the earlier temporal events: creation, Adam and Eve, and the Fall.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Glen describes what I call the Achilles’ heel of traditional Christianity very well and why I propose that the foundation doctrine and dogma of Christianity does not remotely fit the known science and history of humanity and our world. The efforts in Christianity to 'make things fit' range from futile attempts at out right rejection of science for a literal inerrant Bible in one form or another to the extreme allegorical interpretation where justification of the Fall, Original Sin and the Flood is lost. Glenn's attempt lies in between, but closer to the fundamentalist view. I believe in the past Glenn has claimed in the past that he still maintains the belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible in harmony with science.

    I have a fundamental scientific philosophical problem with trying to make a scientific causal relationship to the claim of a Divinely directed miraculous event that in the claim has no scientific basis. Science must stand alone as the best explanation of the nature of our physical existence and the history of life and humanity.

    My greatest objection is that the catastrophic inundation of the Mediterranean 5.3 million years cannot remotely fit the anthropology of human or Homo cultural and technology development required to fit the Biblical account. In the article Glenn presents no evidence to support a human or Homo population that would be adequate.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2014, 08:04 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It has been some time since, years, since I had a dialogue with Glenn concerning his proposal on the old Tweb that the flooding of the Mediterranean fits the 'required' Flood for the Biblical Flood. I had actually had forgotten which flood he was defending for a Biblical flood. Nonetheless I am prepared to go over his article defending his proposal, and give my reasoning for rejecting it.

    He opens the article with the following which I agree with:

    Source: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1997/PSCF12-97Morton.html

    The Bible is unique among the world's religious writings in its dependence upon critical historical events. Without the creation, without Adam and Eve, without the historical events of the Fall, without the incarnation, and without the resurrection, Christianity is left in shambles.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Source: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1997/PSCF12-97Morton.html


    Biblical Christianity takes only the historical facts of incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection as critical to the faith - they alone are recorded in the Bible as essential historical events.

    © Copyright Original Source


    These events have traditionally been viewed as actual events in space-time and are intimately intertwined in Christian theology. In short, Christianity is a historically based religion and as such, the events depicted in the Scriptures must be historically verifiable.

    There is one other important historical event mentioned in the Bible and that is the Flood of Noah. The Flood, while not crucial to the theological basis of Christianity (a Christianity lacking the text describing a historical flood would still be the same), is crucial to the veracity of the scriptural documents. The Flood story is related to us by the same document that informs us of three of the five crucial Christian doctrines. If science were to conclude that no flood occurred, then serious doubt would be cast upon the authority of the Scripture and, thus, on the historicity of the earlier temporal events: creation, Adam and Eve, and the Fall.
    The flood has as much bearing on Christian precepts as do the creation and fall. Which is to say, they are used in expository passages. However, the fable of the fox and the grapes could as readily be used in an expository passage - without any need for the existence of a literal fox.
    Glen describes what I call the Achilles’ heel of traditional Christianity very well and why I propose that the foundation doctrine and dogma of Christianity does not remotely fit the known science and history of humanity and our world.
    Achilles heel? The life and death of Christ are attested even in the Targums - albeit with a viewpoint that portrays the Christ in unfavourable terms.
    The efforts in Christianity to 'make things fit' range from futile attempts at out right rejection of science for a literal inerrant Bible in one form or another to the extreme allegorical interpretation where justification of the Fall, Original Sin and the Flood is lost.
    The precept of original sin is denied by the Old Testament.
    Glenn's attempt lies in between, but closer to the fundamentalist view. I believe in the past Glenn has claimed in the past that he still maintains the belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible in harmony with science.

    I have a fundamental scientific philosophical problem with trying to make a scientific causal relationship to the claim of a Divinely directed miraculous event that in the claim has no scientific basis. Science must stand alone as the best explanation of the nature of our physical existence and the history of life and humanity.

    My greatest objection is that the catastrophic inundation of the Mediterranean 5.3 million years cannot remotely fit the anthropology of human or Homo cultural and technology development required to fit the Biblical account. In the article Glenn presents no evidence to support a human or Homo population that would be adequate.
    The only possible time slot for a flood, if it was physical, would be between 200 000 and 50 000 years ago - or rather, between 150 000 and 70 000 years ago (on the basis of the most current data I have available). IF there was a "Noahic" flood, it would have to have affected the region around the Omo River, and before any migration of h sap sap had expanded beyond that region.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

    Comment


    • #3
      "Historically verifiable"? AFAICS, there are essentially two ways to verify that a given document is historically accurate: 1) Question people who claim to be eyewitnesses. 2) Apply scientific knowledge to extant physical evidence and make inferences as much as Sherlock Holmes did in A Study in Scarlet when he minutely examined the room in which the first murder occurred. With the Bible, the first way is not possible, all eyewitnesses, if any, are now dead. The second way fails when a sentient being such as the Lord God interferes with the natural course of the universe; for example, holding a book thus preventing its fall to the ground, in seeming violation of the Law of Gravitation.

      Consider when the Exodus Israeli crossed the Red Sea. There were a great many eyewitnesses, including citizens of Egypt, which lost a whole army, but they are all dead now. As for scientific evidence, I rather doubt there would be any extant now.

      The crossing is not historically verifiable, is it?
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Biblical Christianity takes only the historical facts of incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection as critical to the faith - they alone are recorded in the Bible as essential historical events.
        The flood has as much bearing on Christian precepts as do the creation and fall. Which is to say, they are used in expository passages. However, the fable of the fox and the grapes could as readily be used in an expository passage - without any need for the existence of a literal fox.
        The flood of Genesis is described and has been considered a literal fact, up until recently with the advent of modern science a literal world wide event. through most of the history of Christianity. Many Christians today still insist on a literal world wide flood in the literal Biblical context. The talking fox has never been described in the parable as a real fox.


        Achilles heel? The life and death of Christ are attested even in the Targums - albeit with a viewpoint that portrays the Christ in unfavourable terms.
        As far as I have read the Targums do not attest to anything during the life of Jesus during his life, but may attest to a response to Christian claims concerning Christ later. This claim does not relate to the problem of tying necessary events and beliefs in traditional Christianity to ancient mythic literature that has no relevance, does not fit,' to our contemporary knowledge of the history of humanity.

        The precept of original sin is denied by the Old Testament.
        You and/or your church may believe that, but the precept of 'Original Sin' is not specifically denied in the OT, and that is not the issue here. As Glenn described the precept of 'Original Sin' is considered essential to traditional Christianity in terms of the 'Fall,' 'Original Sin,' Incarnation and 'Resurrection.' That is the issue where the historical events are essential.

        The only possible time slot for a flood, if it was physical, would be between 200 000 and 50 000 years ago - or rather, between 150 000 and 70 000 years ago (on the basis of the most current data I have available). IF there was a "Noahic" flood, it would have to have affected the region around the Omo River, and before any migration of h sap sap had expanded beyond that region.
        Actually, if there was a flood of sorts, this time slot is out. The technology of the culture during the period the Noahic flood took place would be clearly later then this paleolithic stone age world cultures before 50,000 years ago. All over the world there were many local and regional castastrophic floods that could be understood by a culture as a world flood well after 50,000 years ago, particularly during the retreat of the glaciers.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2014, 03:15 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          "Historically verifiable"? AFAICS, there are essentially two ways to verify that a given document is historically accurate: 1) Question people who claim to be eyewitnesses. 2) Apply scientific knowledge to extant physical evidence and make inferences as much as Sherlock Holmes did in A Study in Scarlet when he minutely examined the room in which the first murder occurred. With the Bible, the first way is not possible, all eyewitnesses, if any, are now dead. The second way fails when a sentient being such as the Lord God interferes with the natural course of the universe; for example, holding a book thus preventing its fall to the ground, in seeming violation of the Law of Gravitation.
          OK, maybe?, but does not contribute to a viable argument.

          Consider when the Exodus Israeli crossed the Red Sea. There were a great many eyewitnesses, including citizens of Egypt, which lost a whole army, but they are all dead now. As for scientific evidence, I rather doubt there would be any extant now.
          Those reported to have witnessed and participated in the Exodus left no known records from the time the event is claimed to have taken place.

          The crossing is not historically verifiable, is it?
          Correct. By the biblical descriptions the route reported represent the known trading routes through the Sinai. The claims of the numbers involved do not work, and there is no evidence of such an invasion of the Palestine region at the time frame claimed in the Bible.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Glenn's knowledge and description of the Mediterranean is very accurate. His conclusion that this is the event described as Noah's flood described in the Bible in his conclusions:

            Source: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1997/PSCF12-97Morton.html

            The model of Noah's Flood presented here is a novel but plausible scenario for the Flood, which fits all the disparate facts outlined in Genesis and in the geological record of the Mediterranean. The model handles the listed problems as follows:

            1. The localization of the human race. The view must assume that one of three conditions held: (1) the flood occurred early enough in human history so that there was not widespread migration throughout the world; (2) the lands surrounding the Mediterranean were too hostile to navigate (but this violates God's command to fill the earth); or (3) humankind, in its rebellion, refused to disperse. A refusal to disperse could have some bearing on God's reaction to a similar refusal to disperse at Babel.

            2 The location of the local flood is identified. The importance of this is that it allows rational discussion of the implications which the view predicts. Evidence for and against the view can be collected. It also removes the nebulousness of most local flood theories.

            3. The Mediterranean basin provides the only location on earth in which a local flood could transport the ark to the top of 10,000-feet-tall mountains. This most serious of objections to a local flood is negated by the chosen location. Furthermore, the Mediterranean basin exactly fits the hydrologic and mineralogic description of the preflood countryside.


            4. The ark was needed to save the lives of Noah and his family and the animals. Due to the vast areas over which rain would occur in such a catastrophe, migration of Noah and the animals would be unlikely.

            5. The Mediterranean basin provides the only location which can explain why the flood would last a little over one year in duration.

            6. The size of the ark is poorly understood due to a loss of the relevant length of the cubit.

            One objection which must be countered is the charge that advocating a local flood is equivalent to giving in to the demands of modern geology. Strictly speaking this is not true since as Filby notes, Matthew Poole in 1670 and Edward Stillingfleet in 1662 both argued for a local flood prior to the advent of geological knowledge.58

            From the point of view of a geoscientist who believes the biblical account, it is reassuring that there exists a hypothesis which exactly fits the facts outlined in the biblical record. While this hypothesis is not concordant with the most widely held view of the Flood, it should be judged not upon how well it fits our present view but upon how well it fits the available facts of theology, geology, and physics.

            © Copyright Original Source



            I believe one of the major reasons Glenn focuses on this event as the Noah Flood event because he proposes the ancestors of humanity only inhabited this region at this time 5.3 million years ago making it fit that ALL were wiped out by the flood except the descendants of Noah and his companions.

            The claim that pre-human Homo civilization existed at this time in the Mediterranean Basin capable of building an Arc 5.3 million years ago is unreasonable, but similar to the claims of Atlantis, the evidence is now under hundreds if not thousands of feet of sea water.

            Regardless of the uncertainty of the length of the cubit, the necessary size of the Arc as described would outside the possibility of such a ship being built and sea worth with the load described including necessary water and food for the animals and humans.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2014, 03:38 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Biblical Christianity takes only the historical facts of incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection as critical to the faith - they alone are recorded in the Bible as essential historical events.[/cite]
              The flood has as much bearing on Christian precepts as do the creation and fall. Which is to say, they are used in expository passages. However, the fable of the fox and the grapes could as readily be used in an expository passage - without any need for the existence of a literal fox.
              Achilles heel? The life and death of Christ are attested even in the Targums - albeit with a viewpoint that portrays the Christ in unfavourable terms. The precept of original sin is denied by the Old Testament. The only possible time slot for a flood, if it was physical, would be between 200 000 and 50 000 years ago - or rather, between 150 000 and 70 000 years ago (on the basis of the most current data I have available). IF there was a "Noahic" flood, it would have to have affected the region around the Omo River, and before any migration of h sap sap had expanded beyond that region.
              How could they even be in a cognitive state to understand who sent the flood and why? They worshipped animals and their ancestors. Maybe not worshipped but thought were alive after passing.

              Surely your theology accommodates a more realistic understanding of prehistory.
              Last edited by whag; 07-06-2014, 03:45 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Those reported to have witnessed and participated in the Exodus left no known records from the time the event is claimed to have taken place.
                It may be that you are thinking, no evidence means non-existence or non-occurrence. I quite disagree. One possibility, which I had raised before, is that evidence vanishes with time. Another possibility is that the Exodus people did pass on their stories orally.

                Correct. By the biblical descriptions the route reported represent the known trading routes through the Sinai.
                You mean there was a trading route through the Red Sea? Please, give us some citation of the literature of the study of the ANE.


                claims of the numbers involved do not work
                Explain, please. Numbers of what?


                , and there is no evidence of such an invasion of the Palestine region at the time frame claimed in the Bible.
                Again, what I said about "no evidence" and more above.
                Last edited by Truthseeker; 07-06-2014, 06:04 PM. Reason: To eliminate a blunder
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The claim that pre-human Homo civilization existed at this time in the Mediterranean Basin capable of building an Arc 5.3 million years ago is unreasonable, but similar to the claims of Atlantis, the evidence is now under hundreds if not thousands of feet of sea water.

                  Regardless of the uncertainty of the length of the cubit, the necessary size of the Arc as described would outside the possibility of such a ship being built and sea worth with the load described including necessary water and food for the animals and humans.
                  But the story is that Noah was following God's instructions. As long as beings can handle simple tools like an adz and an axe, and have plenty of time . . .

                  I cannot prove that scientifically, but do you think your objections are really conclusive?
                  The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                  [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                    It may be that you are thinking, no evidence means non-existence or non-occurrence. I quite disagree. One possibility, which I had raised before, is that evidence vanishes with time. Another possibility is that the Exodus people did pass on their stories orally.
                    I do not interpret no evidence as non-existence or non-occurrence, or that the events did not possibly happen. No evidence is simply no evidence which reduces the likelihood that the events as recorded in Genesis and Exodus happened the manner they were recorded.

                    You mean there was a trading route through the Red Sea? Please, give us some citation of the literature of the study of the ANE.
                    Source: http://www.scholarofgod.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:ane-nomads&catid=40:biblical-archaeology&Itemid=57


                    Egypt’s Interactions with Pastoral Nomads in the Sinai, Negev, and Transjordan By Joshua Nielsen

                    Egypt from ancient times interacted with peoples and territories beyond its own borders in periods of both wartime and peace. Sometimes the interaction was military in nature involving the conquering of peoples and territories, or through political and cultural influences (such as when establishing authority over vassals and Egyptianizing them), through trade, and sometimes through diplomatic correspondence (such as the Amarna letters) and exchanging gifts with foreign dignitaries. The character of Egypt’s interactions with Canaan, particularly in the New Kingdom period (ca. 1550-1070 B.C.), was one of primarily “domination and resistance” as one scholar has phrased it (Hasel 1998: 2). Egypt expanded its empire into Canaan and further north into Syria during the New Kingdom, where at its northerly border it was primarily kept in check by the powerful Hittite empire and also the kingdom of Mitanni.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    read on with maps . . .

                    http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/pqna55.htm


                    Explain, please. Numbers of what?
                    The numbers of Hebrews supposedly in the Exodus.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2014, 09:45 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      How could they even be in a cognitive state to understand who sent the flood and why? They worshipped animals and their ancestors. Maybe not worshipped but thought were alive after passing.

                      Surely your theology accommodates a more realistic understanding of prehistory.
                      KNOWN facts
                      General:
                      There are demonstrable errors in the Biblical record.
                      Specific to the flood:
                      The Biblical record regarding the time that Noah lived is undeniably incorrect.
                      There is no evidence of a flood that submerged all the land of the planet.
                      Estimates put subterranean reserves of water at somewhere between 1 and 2 times the current volume of the oceans. Even if the upper limit of those estimates is correct, there is not enough water on the planet to make submersion possible.
                      Recovery of plant life to the point described in the account of the immediate post flood world is not possible.
                      Only a relatively local flood would account for the descriptions provided by the Bible.
                      The Hebrew word translated as "world" is ambiguous, and does not necessarily indicate the entire planet.

                      POSSIBILITIES:
                      Noah might simply be a fable.
                      Noah might be an embellished pre-historical account.

                      In keeping with scientific method, only the known facts can be asserted, with speculation granting lines of enquiry and nothing more.

                      SPECULATION
                      What the state of development might have been in an essentially pre-apocalyptic world is largely a matter for conjecture.
                      It has taken less than 70 000 years to move human society from the primitive state of hunter gatherers to become the technological society we now know.
                      Around 70 000 years ago (if available information is correct) h sap sap was brought to the brink of extinction
                      h sap sap has been around for roughly 200 000 years - the span between origination and and near extinction is almost twice as long as the span between near extinction and now. It would not be unreasonable to suppose that a certain technological development might have developed in 130 000 years, if only to (say) early bronze age standard.
                      It is argued that human settlement more than 70 000 years ago was primarily coastal.
                      It is further argued that any artifacts from that time period (having been coastal) are now in fairly deep ocean - roughly 80 metres below current sea level.
                      Stone age dated as beginning 3.5 million years in the past could be
                      irrelevant to Biblical records if a "Noah" was H Sap Sap, which would make 200 000 years (on current estimates) the start point for development. The start of the stone age would be rendered irrelevant - only the time of existence of H Sap Sap would be relevant.

                      Stone age dated as beginning 3.5 million years in the past could be
                      relevant to Biblical records if a "Noah" was not H Sap Sap, in which case the earliest possible time for a flood event would extend to around 3.5 million years. In such a case, this "Noah" would only need to be an ancestor of H Sap Sap in direct line, and of course, a near extinction event would need to be identified for the relevant homo ? ancestor.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        But the story is that Noah was following God's instructions. As long as beings can handle simple tools like an adz and an axe, and have plenty of time . . .

                        I cannot prove that scientifically, but do you think your objections are really conclusive?
                        There is no evidence that before 50,000 years ago our Homo ancestors had simple adz nor axes. The design and size of the Arc actually could not have been built before 2 or 4 thousand years ago. It is unlikely it could have been built at all and be sea worthy other then maybe float in calm water, and break up and sink under the load of the animals.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-07-2014, 06:27 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          POSSIBILITIES:
                          Noah might simply be a fable.
                          Noah might be an embellished pre-historical account.
                          Considering the known evidence concerning Genesis. It is an evolved ancient literature with distinct roots in pre-Babylonian and Babylonian cultures as recorded in the known cuneiform tablets. Variations of flood accounts very similar to the Biblical account have been found recorded on these tablets, including other parts of the OT like the Psalms. Along with the rest of the Pentateuch this literature cannot be traced back before 600-800 BCE, and likely compiled in the present form after the exile

                          Geologic and climate history of the region give some hints as to the possibilities for the origins of the Garden of Eden and the flood. The region of the Middle East was once far more Verdant and lush, and a Garden of Eden like climate in places. It has sense dried out with mostly harsh arid to semiarid environment remaining in recent history. Only the River valleys remain to support large populations. The sediment records world wide give witness to numerous post glacial regional and local flooding events. Such flooding events, and even more recent extensive flooding events are known to occur in the Tigris Euphrates Valleys. These floods can occur with out rain if the source is the mountains, and survivors and be washed to sea on debris mats, rafts with some animals to make it appear larger then the flood was, and washed a shore. Variations of local catastrophic flood events can grow into recorded flood events in ancient literature with embellishment. It is a common theme for ancient peoples to attribute catastrophic events as caused by God(s) displeased with human faults.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-07-2014, 06:25 AM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            There is no evidence that before 50,000 years ago our Homo ancestors had simple adz nor axes. The design and size of the Arc actually could not have been built before 2 or 4 thousand years ago. It is unlikely it could have been built at all and be sea worthy other then maybe float in calm water, and break up and sink under the load of the animals.
                            Evidence of such tools would be buried under sediment and water. Moreover, if I understand correctly, dating the tools would be rather problematic anyway.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The numbers of Hebrews supposedly in the Exodus.
                              Oh, I think I know what you are referring to. I think the YEC crowd demonstrated that the Hebrews could have grown in population size that quickly. If you have seen the demonstration and rejected it, won't you please explain in detail why?
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

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                              by Tassman
                               
                              Started by Machinist, 03-12-2021, 07:15 AM
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