Originally posted by whag
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The problem of evil and suffering and the final state of man.
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Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by whag View PostThat opens a can of worms about evil always being a possibility in heaven. If that possibility is vanquished in heaven, it could have been vanquished at the initial creation.Last edited by Jedidiah; 07-03-2014, 11:34 PM.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostI expect you are a trillionaire, 'cuz on the basis of your statements, you can predict the daily highs and lows of the stock markets around the world and bet accordingly. Suppose the Beserkiztani stock market moves up or down about 1% daily. A dollar to start with and in a bit less than 8 years a trillion dollars (if I have reasoned correctly). Why condescend to post to us mere mortals? Go off and burn your $100 dollar bills for fun.
the little dog laughed to see such sport
and the dish ran away with the spoon.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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The problem is that would contradict the scripture if that were to happen. Obviously it can't/won't happen in the final state but why? There might not be an answer to this (which I'm ok with) but I wanted to see if anyone had anything to add."Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
-Marcus Aurelius
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One suggestion I've heard is that people are genuinely free in heaven, and that their memory of evil/suffering is what prevents them from sinning. The idea is that the traumatic knowledge of just how terrible evil can be will naturally motivate them to not sin, and this time, that state of being utterly pure and directly in the presence of God will give them enough strength to resist the temptation. Adam and Eve lacked that experience. Think of those anti-smoking ads that feature people who've literally lost part of their throat because of years of heavy smoking. They likely started the habit as teenagers, when they were ignorant of the potential consequences. But after what they personally went through, they've never gone back to smoking, and most likely wouldn't even if they could be magically healed.
*Not that I'm endorsing that speculation as what REALLY, TRULY is the case. Just putting it out there as food for thought.Last edited by fm93; 07-03-2014, 11:00 PM.Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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Originally posted by square_peg View PostOne suggestion I've heard is that people are genuinely free in heaven, and that their memory of evil/suffering is what prevents them from sinning. The idea is that the traumatic knowledge of just how terrible evil can be will naturally motivate them to not sin. Think of those anti-smoking ads that feature people who've literally lost part of their throat because of years of heavy smoking. They likely started the habit as teenagers, when they were ignorant of the potential consequences. You think they'd ever return to smoking if they could somehow be magically healed?
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Originally posted by whag View PostThis is a popular explanation, but doesn't wash. It strongly implies that a fall was required to get to the proper state of being where sin is always rejected. If the fall was required, sin was destined by God.Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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Originally posted by square_peg View PostAs I said in an amendment to that post, I'm not personally endorsing the explanation, but simply offering it as something for T-Shirt Ninja to consider.
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhy wouldn't that be just as likely there as on earth? In the bible, the first couple mismanage free will--even while being in a paradisical environment and in fellowship with the ineffable creator.
I might not respond to anymore of your posts until TSN responds, being it's his thread. Besides, I recognize you from the past, where you had a habit of signing on with multiple names and got banned a couple times if I remember correctly.
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All of his descendants fell into the same trap. So now man is addicted to sin and evil and is inclined to give in to it.
In answer to this problem, God sent his Son to suffer and die on account of man's sin and to bring him back to God where he can be good again. Even in this state, Christians fall into sin but have God as their helper even when they fall down and will always lead them to him in repentance when they choose him.
At the final judgment, God will separate those who will be saved and those who will be condemned.
The saved will go into eternal communion and joy with him and the damned will go into eternal suffering (whether that be shame or torture).
Now that I have explained that which most of you knew already, here's my question:Why can't the final state of men who are saved be the original state in which God created man in the first place?
I've heard that people who are in this state still retain free will but choose never to depart from God. However, if it isn't the case that they retain their free will, then it seems that they lose part of their goodness and that which makes them human since our free will is good even if it is used for evil at times.
You will have noticed, perhaps, that it is said of those who are in hell that their worm does not die. In common with other languages, Koine uses "worm" as a description of superficial appearances. Even in English, that was and in some circumstances still is the case. "Worm ridden meat" is maggot infested.
In Japanese, 虫 (mushi), likewise is worm or insect larva. In hell, the larva doesn't die - the person does not transform from the current state of being lesser than the angels to superior.Last edited by tabibito; 07-04-2014, 12:16 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by T-Shirt Ninja View PostThe problem is that would contradict the scripture if that were to happen. Obviously it can't/won't happen in the final state but why? There might not be an answer to this (which I'm ok with) but I wanted to see if anyone had anything to add.
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Keep in mind that the birth, life and death of Christ was set before creation.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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