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The problem of evil and suffering and the final state of man.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    That doesn't say anything meaningful. It just engenders more questions about temporality and divine intent.
    Pretty much my point. We do not have adequate information in the Bible to give us the why. No one here will give any real answer to the why question. I guarantee.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      That opens a can of worms about evil always being a possibility in heaven. If that possibility is vanquished in heaven, it could have been vanquished at the initial creation.
      The point is it was not done. Why is what is being asked, and that is not known.
      Last edited by Jedidiah; 07-03-2014, 11:34 PM.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        I expect you are a trillionaire, 'cuz on the basis of your statements, you can predict the daily highs and lows of the stock markets around the world and bet accordingly. Suppose the Beserkiztani stock market moves up or down about 1% daily. A dollar to start with and in a bit less than 8 years a trillion dollars (if I have reasoned correctly). Why condescend to post to us mere mortals? Go off and burn your $100 dollar bills for fun.
        the cow jumped over the moon
        the little dog laughed to see such sport
        and the dish ran away with the spoon.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          I don't see the problem with your first point
          A citizen of heaven might sin and recruit others to do so?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            A citizen of heaven might sin and recruit others to do so?
            The cost of freewill. Still don't see the problem.

            Comment


            • #21
              The problem is that would contradict the scripture if that were to happen. Obviously it can't/won't happen in the final state but why? There might not be an answer to this (which I'm ok with) but I wanted to see if anyone had anything to add.
              "Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
              -Marcus Aurelius

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              • #22
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                The cost of freewill. Still don't see the problem.
                Why wouldn't that be just as likely there as on earth? In the bible, the first couple mismanage free will--even while being in a paradisical environment and in fellowship with the ineffable creator.

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                • #23
                  One suggestion I've heard is that people are genuinely free in heaven, and that their memory of evil/suffering is what prevents them from sinning. The idea is that the traumatic knowledge of just how terrible evil can be will naturally motivate them to not sin, and this time, that state of being utterly pure and directly in the presence of God will give them enough strength to resist the temptation. Adam and Eve lacked that experience. Think of those anti-smoking ads that feature people who've literally lost part of their throat because of years of heavy smoking. They likely started the habit as teenagers, when they were ignorant of the potential consequences. But after what they personally went through, they've never gone back to smoking, and most likely wouldn't even if they could be magically healed.

                  *Not that I'm endorsing that speculation as what REALLY, TRULY is the case. Just putting it out there as food for thought.
                  Last edited by fm93; 07-03-2014, 11:00 PM.
                  Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                  I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    One suggestion I've heard is that people are genuinely free in heaven, and that their memory of evil/suffering is what prevents them from sinning. The idea is that the traumatic knowledge of just how terrible evil can be will naturally motivate them to not sin. Think of those anti-smoking ads that feature people who've literally lost part of their throat because of years of heavy smoking. They likely started the habit as teenagers, when they were ignorant of the potential consequences. You think they'd ever return to smoking if they could somehow be magically healed?
                    This is a popular explanation, but doesn't wash. It strongly implies that a fall was required to get to the proper state of being where sin is always rejected. If the fall was required, sin was destined by God.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      This is a popular explanation, but doesn't wash. It strongly implies that a fall was required to get to the proper state of being where sin is always rejected. If the fall was required, sin was destined by God.
                      As I said in an amendment to that post, I'm not personally endorsing the explanation, but simply offering it as something for T-Shirt Ninja to consider.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                        As I said in an amendment to that post, I'm not personally endorsing the explanation, but simply offering it as something for T-Shirt Ninja to consider.
                        In hindsight, it is worthy of consideration. If sin is destined, it'd make much more sense of the harsh environment human beings were put in (coming from animals, being in the food chain). The mystery is why God allowed the biblical authors to say our nature is our fault rather than something that was divinely destined.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Why wouldn't that be just as likely there as on earth? In the bible, the first couple mismanage free will--even while being in a paradisical environment and in fellowship with the ineffable creator.
                          We would assume via faith that God will make it highly unlikely. Living in a state of suffering, pain and evil temporarily would enforce that premise once set free from that state. But improbable still doesn't make it impossible -- the cost of freewill.

                          I might not respond to anymore of your posts until TSN responds, being it's his thread. Besides, I recognize you from the past, where you had a habit of signing on with multiple names and got banned a couple times if I remember correctly.

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                          • #28
                            All of his descendants fell into the same trap. So now man is addicted to sin and evil and is inclined to give in to it.
                            Not "is" - "was" or "has been", assuming that the person's liege lord is Christ.
                            In answer to this problem, God sent his Son to suffer and die on account of man's sin and to bring him back to God where he can be good again. Even in this state, Christians fall into sin but have God as their helper even when they fall down and will always lead them to him in repentance when they choose him.
                            A state which is not intended to be permanent. A born-again believer will indeed fall time and again, but he will learn to overcome his "addiction" in time. By the Holy Spirit, he will put to death the deeds of his flesh. We don't expect a new-born to compete in hurdle races, and we don't expect new-born believers to be able to clear all of temptation's hurdles the moment that he chooses Christ. That only comes with dedication and practice.
                            At the final judgment, God will separate those who will be saved and those who will be condemned.
                            Near as I can tell, "will be" should be "are".
                            The saved will go into eternal communion and joy with him and the damned will go into eternal suffering (whether that be shame or torture).
                            Now that I have explained that which most of you knew already, here's my question:
                            Why can't the final state of men who are saved be the original state in which God created man in the first place?
                            That, they will be.
                            I've heard that people who are in this state still retain free will but choose never to depart from God. However, if it isn't the case that they retain their free will, then it seems that they lose part of their goodness and that which makes them human since our free will is good even if it is used for evil at times.
                            The mature believer won't sin. I don't say "can't", but that he will have the capacity to refuse. After his resurrection, he will no longer have the same body, weak to temptation, that he has before his death. From here, speculation: Most likely, he will still have the capacity to be tempted, but as someone else stated, he has a remembered past that will help to bolster his will. He will also have a body which is much more resistant to temptation. Also, Adam did not sin until he had been gulled and led astray by his own desire. He didn't know the consequences - we do ... we have seen for ourselves the consequences of yielding to our desires.

                            You will have noticed, perhaps, that it is said of those who are in hell that their worm does not die. In common with other languages, Koine uses "worm" as a description of superficial appearances. Even in English, that was and in some circumstances still is the case. "Worm ridden meat" is maggot infested.
                            In Japanese, 虫 (mushi), likewise is worm or insect larva. In hell, the larva doesn't die - the person does not transform from the current state of being lesser than the angels to superior.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 07-04-2014, 12:16 AM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by T-Shirt Ninja View Post
                              The problem is that would contradict the scripture if that were to happen. Obviously it can't/won't happen in the final state but why? There might not be an answer to this (which I'm ok with) but I wanted to see if anyone had anything to add.
                              I got so distracted I missed this post, and I'm assuming it was a response to post #20. It's always possible, but that doesn't mean it's likely or probable. It was possible that Jesus would succumb to the distress of the cross, which would have nullified all the previous promises of the messiah and the predestined plan of God through Christ... but it wasn't probable because it didn't happen. The reason I believe it won't happen with us (and I'm admitting this is my own belief) is because we have been exposed to totally different circumstances than Adam or the angels. They started high and ended up low; we're starting low and will end up high. Our temporary pain and suffering will enforce our loyalty in the next state away from pain and suffering. If there are those that never fall away in spite of the evil and suffering they undergo now, imagine how much less likely it will be for them to fall away in the next state free from evil and suffering.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Keep in mind that the birth, life and death of Christ was set before creation.
                                I've heard that said ... but I haven't seen anything in scripture to show it. Does someone have references?
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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