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God of Creation vs God of the Bible - A Crisis of Faith

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    and when 2 or 3 people are met together with focus on Christ, there is a church.



    So what was the platitude? That people can love God without realising it? His post shows that his love for God is in all probability real.
    The platitude was saying anyone who doesn't make Jesus liege lord of his/her life is lukewarm. His post confessed he didn't make god the central focus.

    Comment


    • #32
      そうかな
      According to my assessment of what he wrote, he does what is required, but has not been aware of the fact.

      According to your assessment, he does not. If that is so, he has now been made aware of what he needs to do to correct the difficulty.

      However, your assessment, if correct, would make further platitudes necessary - for he assuredly does not want to be lukewarm.

      Therefore, adding platitude to platitude:
      Making Christ your liege lord means undertaking to do all that He wants regardless of risk, cost and inconvenience.
      It means throwing aside the idea that it is impossible to stop sinning, and to begin the long and arduous task of learning to overcome the rule of sin in your life. The belief that it is impossible to overcome sin will without doubt prevent a person from being able to stop being lukewarm, because retaining sin will prevent proper communion with Christ and with God.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        そうかな
        According to my assessment of what he wrote, he does what is required, but has not been aware of the fact.

        According to your assessment, he does not. If that is so, he has now been made aware of what he needs to do to correct the difficulty.

        However, your assessment, if correct, would make further platitudes necessary - for he assuredly does not want to be lukewarm.

        Therefore, adding platitude to platitude:
        Making Christ your liege lord means undertaking to do all that He wants regardless of risk, cost and inconvenience.
        It means throwing aside the idea that it is impossible to stop sinning, and to begin the long and arduous task of learning to overcome the rule of sin in your life. The belief that it is impossible to overcome sin will without doubt prevent a person from being able to stop being lukewarm, because retaining sin will prevent proper communion with Christ and with God.
        I didn't assess Q's spiritual state. I'm only monitoring your admonishment to make sure you don't plunge him into further despair. If you think he's in a good place spiritually, that's great. I'd caution you to be more careful in expressing yourself. I get the distinct impression from your responses so far that you think he needs to risk everything--job, family, life--to make Jesus lord. Something he confessed to not doing in his OP. Be careful with that. This his not first century Palestine. If you're going to be that extreme, at least outline how you've sacrificed to that extreme extent and still manage to maintain your livelihood (roof over your head, wifi connection, family, etc.)
        Last edited by whag; 07-05-2014, 02:07 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          If you're going to be that extreme, at least outline how you've sacrificed to that extreme extent and still manage to maintain your livelihood (roof over your head, wifi connection, family, etc.)
          In the first place, those are things that can happen in extremis - in the ordinary course, in most European based societies they don't. There are many places in the world - the Middle East being not the only example - where in extremis is a daily reality. In the second place - I have to some extent done just what you describe.
          Yes - I have been at risk on occasion through witnessing to people who were interested in hearing the witness about Christ, (including one who was a prostitute, and another who was a Satanic High Priestess). And the risk almost never arises from "interested" parties, but from by-standers who have nothing at stake.
          And yes, doing what God desired did result in loss of wife and family, and there have been other costs. Striking a balance does from time to time does prove to be impossible: as with Bushidou, Liege Lord is Liege Lord, that's all there is to it.
          Pretending that following Christ is easy street only makes it impossible for people to meet challenges when they arise, and arise they will.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            And of course, it is inevitable that when I must perforce make mention of these matters, someone will accuse me of self-aggrandisement.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              In the first place, those are things that can happen in extremis - in the ordinary course, in most European based societies they don't. There are many places in the world - the Middle East being not the only example - where in extremis is a daily reality. In the second place - I have to some extent done just what you describe.
              Yes - I have been at risk on occasion through witnessing to people who were interested in hearing the witness about Christ, (including one who was a prostitute, and another who was a Satanic High Priestess). And the risk almost never arises from "interested" parties, but from by-standers who have nothing at stake.
              And yes, doing what God desired did result in loss of wife and family, and there have been other costs. Striking a balance does from time to time does prove to be impossible: as with Bushidou, Liege Lord is Liege Lord, that's all there is to it.
              Pretending that following Christ is easy street only makes it impossible for people to meet challenges when they arise, and arise they will.
              I don't accuse you of self aggrandizement. I asked a question and you answered it.

              I would like to know how Christianity contributed to losing your wife and family. Did they leave you or you leave them?

              Comment


              • #37
                To give as much detail as possible:
                I was assigned a mission (by God). My wife didn't like it and began interfering, including giving the order that I desist. That failing, she enlisted the aid of a third party (who had a legitimate interest). When I noted the fact, I informed him of what would follow if she succeeded in preventing what needed to be done, and that if she was successful, there would be nothing I could do to save the marriage. In the event, she did succeed. The consequences that I had outlined were fulfilled. Shortly thereafter, she gave the order that I leave.
                Some months later, I was considering whether I should seek a reconciliation. That same evening, (not that I had said anything to anyone about my cogitations) she informed me that I could come back, provided that I restrict Christian activity to "proper" church activities. With that, I had the answer to whether I should seek a reconciliation.
                Some time later, I was informed that her offer had been made a couple of days after a fight with her boyfriend. I do not know whether that is factual though.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  To give as much detail as possible:
                  I was assigned a mission (by God). My wife didn't like it and began interfering, including giving the order that I desist. That failing, she enlisted the aid of a third party (who had a legitimate interest). When I noted the fact, I informed him of what would follow if she succeeded in preventing what needed to be done, and that if she was successful, there would be nothing I could do to save the marriage. In the event, she did succeed. The consequences that I had outlined were fulfilled. Shortly thereafter, she gave the order that I leave.
                  Some months later, I was considering whether I should seek a reconciliation. That same evening, (not that I had said anything to anyone about my cogitations) she informed me that I could come back, provided that I restrict Christian activity to "proper" church activities. With that, I had the answer to whether I should seek a reconciliation.
                  Some time later, I was informed that her offer had been made a couple of days after a fight with her boyfriend. I do not know whether that is factual though.
                  That's astounding. Why did she object so strongly to the mission? Hopefully, you had no kids.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by whag
                    That's astounding. Why did she object so strongly to the mission? Hopefully, you had no kids.
                    Ever heard it said that "a man's enemies will be the members of his own household"? We have a daughter, then 9 years old, and fully aware that a divorce was in the making ahead of time. When the time came, her only comment was "I knew this would happen." However, as divorces go it was relatively civil - we worked together to make things as easy for her as possible - which is not to say it was in any way easy on her.

                    I could come back, provided that I restrict Christian activity to "proper" church activities
                    For my wife, this was a compromise. She had been just as strongly opposed to my activity within the church before I was given the extra assignment - though that opposition was less strident because she at least got some reflected kudos from church members.
                    (Not that the pastor was happy - a whole other story, but the elders were.)

                    In the final analysis, the fault has to be slated to my own arrogance. I knew the outcomes of being unequally yoked, but thought that I was good enough to "beat the odds" and make marriage to an unbeliever workable.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Welcome back. Love your new screenname, by the way. I think it was Augustine who said that 'the desire to please God pleases God'. Never abandon rationality. Faith and reason are not an either/or proposition. I think it was Karl Barth who characterized Catholicism as a 'both/and' approach to faith and reason. This may be foreign to some interpretations of Protestantism but I suspect this is a minority position when it comes to being able to embrace both faith and reason fully. It is a life-long task to love God with our whole heart; how could it be otherwise?
                      Sorry to abandon this thread while I was away, I appreciate all the responses!

                      That is a great Augustine quote. I confess though that it is this desire to please God which escapes me. I could say in part that I search for truth in hope that I may learn more of who God is and glorify Him more...but if I'm completely honest in essence mine is a selfish quest of self-preservation. Pascal's wager does hold sway with me, but it is incapable of giving me a true relationship with God based on love.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        The best start point is to examine the scriptures themselves to see what they have to say about whether everything in the Bible is scripture and inspired by God.
                        #1 point - does 2 Timothy 3:16 really say that "all scripture is inspired by God"? -
                        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
                        the answer is ... it says no such thing, what it really says has been wrested.
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]855[/ATTACH]
                        Interesting, though this is pretty much how I have approached the Bible.

                        However, this is where the old fundamentalist in me screams out, "You can't pick and choose parts of the Bible, you must submit to it in whole!"

                        While I don't agree with that ultimatum, I do think that the more loosely you approach Scriptural inspiration, the potential for creating a false representation of God rises. I have yet to find that balance. Jesus seems to approach strict OT interpretation quite adamantly, which gives me the most pause. How do you determine what is inspired/useful and what is not?
                        Last edited by Qoheleth; 07-10-2014, 01:15 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Not so hard really - Start with the whole Bible, and sift through things that shouldn't be discarded.
                          1/ Is it supported by two or more authors - yes: It is possibly a fact.
                          2/ Is it REALLY supported by two or more authors - yes: it can probably be accepted as fact.
                          3/ Is there anything that contradicts it? - yes: it is possibly wrong.
                          4/ Is the contradiction simply a modification, rather than an opposite - yes: it can probably be accepted as fact.

                          A/ Does the author claim to be expressing his own opinion - yes: it certainly isn't prophecy of scripture, nor of anything else.
                          B/ Did the author observe it in the natural world, without claiming that it had any connection with information from God - yes: it isn't prophecy of scripture, nor of anything else.
                          There's about 20 years worth of careful sifting in that lot alone.

                          But, usually I will advise: if it looks important, Check who the author attributes the information to (someone with a hatred of Christ, himself, another author, God, no attribution stated) "Hater" or "himself" rules out any possibility of the point being prophecy of scripture. If one of the others, check the Bible to see if and where it is repeated. Make sure that the repetition is real and not a trick of the light.
                          If you see no reason to doubt something, even where there is no second author, accept it subject to advisement.

                          And always assume until proven otherwise, that anything in the Bible is there for a purpose, whether it is prophecy of scripture or not. Even the errors serve a purpose - if nothing else, they prove the need to be careful about what you accept as truth even from such a reliable source.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-10-2014, 01:51 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Qoheleth View Post
                            Interesting, though this is pretty much how I have approached the Bible.

                            However, this is where the old fundamentalist in me screams out, "You can't pick and choose parts of the Bible, you must submit to it in whole!"

                            While I don't agree with that ultimatum, I do think that the more loosely you approach Scriptural inspiration, the potential for creating a false representation of God rises. I have yet to find that balance. Jesus seems to approach strict OT interpretation quite adamantly, which gives me the most pause. How do you determine what is inspired/useful and what is not?
                            Jesus disagreed with Moses regarding divorce and improvised new parables to teach about the Kingdom of God, which itself had been largely abandoned in favor of a monarchy in much of the Jewish scriptures. Where his interpretation of scripture was not always literal, eg, regarding divorce, he was in line with one school of contemporary interpretation, which seems to have been quite comfortable with directly opposing interpretations which recognized contradictions in scripture and sometimes held that both could be correct in very different ways and that God could change his mind when overruled by the majority of his interpreters. In such a fluid situation you cannot always be sure if one interpretation is inspired or correct, and that's OK. It is part of being human and being part of a community with a variety of views and conflicting traditions.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Qoheleth View Post
                              Sorry to abandon this thread while I was away, I appreciate all the responses!

                              That is a great Augustine quote. I confess though that it is this desire to please God which escapes me. I could say in part that I search for truth in hope that I may learn more of who God is and glorify Him more...but if I'm completely honest in essence mine is a selfish quest of self-preservation. Pascal's wager does hold sway with me, but it is incapable of giving me a true relationship with God based on love.
                              God also desires your preservation so you're in good company.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Not so hard really - Start with the whole Bible, and sift through things that shouldn't be discarded.
                                1/ Is it supported by two or more authors - yes: It is possibly a fact.
                                2/ Is it REALLY supported by two or more authors - yes: it can probably be accepted as fact.
                                3/ Is there anything that contradicts it? - yes: it is possibly wrong.
                                4/ Is the contradiction simply a modification, rather than an opposite - yes: it can probably be accepted as fact.
                                Does that work for all books, or just the Bible?

                                Comment

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