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God of Creation vs God of the Bible - A Crisis of Faith

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  • God of Creation vs God of the Bible - A Crisis of Faith

    James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
    6 But let him ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

    Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him , for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


    Faith doesn’t come to me the way it does for some. Many people, including my wife can just see the stars or read a few verses in Romans and that’s all they need to convince them beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yahweh God created this universe from a formless void and sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins almost 2,000 years ago. Many of them marvel how anyone could possibly not see how great and glorious and holy of a God we serve.

    Unfortunately that’s not me. I am the man James is talking about in the passage above. My so-called faith is a constant roller-coaster, a leaky ship amongst the raging sea for the past decade. Part of the reason is due to my disposition as an objective truth-seeker. Though this is my first post this time around (I had a different user name before the Big Crash last year), I’ve debated on this and other forums for many years, trying to fervently defend the faith. However, I was never the sort to stick my head in the sand and just proclaim the things I “knew” to be true. I always made sure I understood the opponents arguments as well as I knew my own. Over time this certainly changed my worldview…yet there was always enough truth in the message & structure of Christianity that I never lost my faith completely. However, I began to see that the God I see in nature does not match the God I see in the Bible as we know it today.

    Psalms 19:1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
    2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.

    How can I really know God if what the natural knowledge I am receiving is so vastly different than the inspired Scriptural knowledge? Google “pictures of God’s creation” and you get a vast assortment of vistas, clouds, butterflies and rainbows. I think there’s actually a few sites devoted to showing images like that. What you never see are pictures of anglerfish, ticks, hairless moles & sulfur pools. These are equally as prominent in creation, if not more. In fact the vast majority of perceived beauty is by design to kill or protect from being killed. All creation is knowledge…both the ugly & beautiful, however most believers are content to just say spiders & such are products of the fall. But as I learned, that is almost certainly not true. In the least it is certainly not scriptural as no mention is made of a second creation…and if you are going to try and convince me that a spider web’s original design was to catch leaves, then I’m sorry but you’ve lost me. I have no problem with belief, but I insist upon that belief being rational and not fanciful.

    So it appears that I am forever at an impasse. I’ve always loved all facets of creation (even ticks & anglerfish!) yet I have a major problem marrying the God of the Bible & the God of Creation. Though they share some traits (omnipotence, creativity) they also could not be more different in others (randomness VS complete predetermination, chaos/death as natural VS chaos/death as judgment, Billions of potential Earths VS Earth-Centered, Scripture that has been piecemealed from many sources VS completely Spirit-Inspired/authored, etc..).

    I am convinced that there is nothing I can personally do that will grant me the intellectual knowledge to harmoniously answer these problems. After all the message of the Gospel is not about what I have done, but what He has done for me, correct? I have prayed for many years that God grant me this faith that surpasses knowledge & love that surpasses understanding. And yet I still do not feel that I truly know him. I certainly don’t trust him in the way that would grant me saving faith. And worst of all, I do not love him. I do desire to, but if I’m honest with myself, I cannot say that I love him with all my heart nor do I make him the central focus of my life. Is it really an either or? Must I simply abandon rationality if I am to believe? Do I just have to drown out the constant objections I see to Orthodox Christianity and become a fideist? I’d really love to hear input, especially from any theistic evolutionists on board, as their plight would be most similar to mine.

  • #2
    Welcome back. Love your new screenname, by the way. I think it was Augustine who said that 'the desire to please God pleases God'. Never abandon rationality. Faith and reason are not an either/or proposition. I think it was Karl Barth who characterized Catholicism as a 'both/and' approach to faith and reason. This may be foreign to some interpretations of Protestantism but I suspect this is a minority position when it comes to being able to embrace both faith and reason fully. It is a life-long task to love God with our whole heart; how could it be otherwise?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #3
      Welcome back Qoheleth, I think we all got displaced after the Big T-Web Bang.

      Regarding your post;

      Originally posted by Qoheleth View Post
      I am convinced that there is nothing I can personally do that will grant me the intellectual knowledge to harmoniously answer these problems. After all the message of the Gospel is not about what I have done, but what He has done for me, correct?
      This is the message of those who believe in the apocalyptic message of Jesus and the "substitution atonement" theory of Paul and later Gospel writers.

      I think there is another way: simply following the wisdom teachings of Jesus. You go on to say;

      Originally posted by Qoheleth View Post
      I have prayed for many years that God grant me this faith that surpasses knowledge & love that surpasses understanding. And yet I still do not feel that I truly know him. I certainly don’t trust him in the way that would grant me saving faith. And worst of all, I do not love him. I do desire to, but if I’m honest with myself, I cannot say that I love him with all my heart nor do I make him the central focus of my life. Is it really an either or? Must I simply abandon rationality if I am to believe? Do I just have to drown out the constant objections I see to Orthodox Christianity and become a fideist? I’d really love to hear input, especially from any theistic evolutionists on board, as their plight would be most similar to mine.
      I think this is the problem with substitutionary and apocalyptic Jesus. It not only requires us to believe in all the miracles and fantastic tales contained in the Tanakh and Christian Testament (the messianic prophecy and "proofs"), but we must believe that G-d created a flawed universe where his creation fails and then requires a "blood sacrifice" to make everything groovy again. I too struggled with these things my entire Christian journey.

      It led me to convert to Judaism (Reformed). Within that context, I didn't have to leave my rational self behind. I could examine the claims of the faith head-on and glean the wisdom and toss the rest (ala Thomas Jefferson: http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ ).

      I still attend Shul, although I am now an agnostic. I think that there is a "Something Greater" we refer to as G-d, Allah, etc..., but we lack the knowledge to define it. Reform Judaism focuses on the here and now with no concern for the afterlife. No one asks me to believe this or believe that or else....

      I look forward to seeing what you discover during your journey.

      NORM
      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

      Comment


      • #4
        How can I really know God if what the natural knowledge I am receiving is so vastly different than the inspired Scriptural knowledge?
        The best start point is to examine the scriptures themselves to see what they have to say about whether everything in the Bible is scripture and inspired by God.
        #1 point - does 2 Timothy 3:16 really say that "all scripture is inspired by God"? -
        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
        the answer is ... it says no such thing, what it really says has been wrested.
        10402756_795873433765576_3408292443959097070_n.jpg
        Last edited by tabibito; 06-28-2014, 02:51 AM.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that is not viable to blame the Fall for the way that nature works. We had a thread going about that a few weeks ago IIRC and one of the topics that came up was the ancient way of viewing creation as created in a state of immaturity, with room to grow. I do not see it as necessary to read the Genesis account as reading that everything was in a state of perfection pre-fall; after all, the serpent was lurking around with evil motives, and we know that evil will in the end be utterly banished. If everything was created perfect, there would be no purpose for the creation commandments, where we have dominion over the world (or, as Paul Seely calls it, the Scientific Mandate).

          I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject; I've done a little reading, and while I have come across a number of insights that make the problem seem less severe than at first glance, I think this ultimately boils down to the old "Why didn't God create heaven to begin with?" in the first place. While we can't fully answer that at all, I heavily suspect it comes down to the notion that God is glorified by having us freely choose to enter into fellowship with him. (To be clear, I'm not making the facile "there's evil because free will!" argument here.)
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I agree that is not viable to blame the Fall for the way that nature works. We had a thread going about that a few weeks ago IIRC and one of the topics that came up was the ancient way of viewing creation as created in a state of immaturity, with room to grow. I do not see it as necessary to read the Genesis account as reading that everything was in a state of perfection pre-fall; after all, the serpent was lurking around with evil motives, and we know that evil will in the end be utterly banished. If everything was created perfect, there would be no purpose for the creation commandments, where we have dominion over the world (or, as Paul Seely calls it, the Scientific Mandate).

            I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject; I've done a little reading, and while I have come across a number of insights that make the problem seem less severe than at first glance, I think this ultimately boils down to the old "Why didn't God create heaven to begin with?" in the first place. While we can't fully answer that at all, I heavily suspect it comes down to the notion that God is glorified by having us freely choose to enter into fellowship with him. (To be clear, I'm not making the facile "there's evil because free will!" argument here.)
            Does the framework hypothesis allow freedom to believe God intended everything to play out the way it has from the beginning? It seems highly unlikely he'd expect human beings to be perfect.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              Does the framework hypothesis allow freedom to believe God intended everything to play out the way it has from the beginning? It seems highly unlikely he'd expect human beings to be perfect.
              Certainly, yes.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Qoheleth View Post
                James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
                6 But let him ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

                Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him , for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


                Faith doesn’t come to me the way it does for some. Many people, including my wife can just see the stars or read a few verses in Romans and that’s all they need to convince them beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yahweh God created this universe from a formless void and sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins almost 2,000 years ago. Many of them marvel how anyone could possibly not see how great and glorious and holy of a God we serve.

                Unfortunately that’s not me. I am the man James is talking about in the passage above. My so-called faith is a constant roller-coaster, a leaky ship amongst the raging sea for the past decade. Part of the reason is due to my disposition as an objective truth-seeker. Though this is my first post this time around (I had a different user name before the Big Crash last year), I’ve debated on this and other forums for many years, trying to fervently defend the faith. However, I was never the sort to stick my head in the sand and just proclaim the things I “knew” to be true. I always made sure I understood the opponents arguments as well as I knew my own. Over time this certainly changed my worldview…yet there was always enough truth in the message & structure of Christianity that I never lost my faith completely. However, I began to see that the God I see in nature does not match the God I see in the Bible as we know it today. This search lead to a more universal view of the world that would be reasonable and logical by the evidence.

                Psalms 19:1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
                2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.

                How can I really know God if what the natural knowledge I am receiving is so vastly different than the inspired Scriptural knowledge? Google “pictures of God’s creation” and you get a vast assortment of vistas, clouds, butterflies and rainbows. I think there’s actually a few sites devoted to showing images like that. What you never see are pictures of anglerfish, ticks, hairless moles & sulfur pools. These are equally as prominent in creation, if not more. In fact the vast majority of perceived beauty is by design to kill or protect from being killed. All creation is knowledge…both the ugly & beautiful, however most believers are content to just say spiders & such are products of the fall. But as I learned, that is almost certainly not true. In the least it is certainly not scriptural as no mention is made of a second creation…and if you are going to try and convince me that a spider web’s original design was to catch leaves, then I’m sorry but you’ve lost me. I have no problem with belief, but I insist upon that belief being rational and not fanciful.

                So it appears that I am forever at an impasse. I’ve always loved all facets of creation (even ticks & anglerfish!) yet I have a major problem marrying the God of the Bible & the God of Creation. Though they share some traits (omnipotence, creativity) they also could not be more different in others (randomness VS complete predetermination, chaos/death as natural VS chaos/death as judgment, Billions of potential Earths VS Earth-Centered, Scripture that has been piecemealed from many sources VS completely Spirit-Inspired/authored, etc..).

                I am convinced that there is nothing I can personally do that will grant me the intellectual knowledge to harmoniously answer these problems. After all the message of the Gospel is not about what I have done, but what He has done for me, correct? I have prayed for many years that God grant me this faith that surpasses knowledge & love that surpasses understanding. And yet I still do not feel that I truly know him. I certainly don’t trust him in the way that would grant me saving faith. And worst of all, I do not love him. I do desire to, but if I’m honest with myself, I cannot say that I love him with all my heart nor do I make him the central focus of my life. Is it really an either or? Must I simply abandon rationality if I am to believe? Do I just have to drown out the constant objections I see to Orthodox Christianity and become a fideist? I’d really love to hear input, especially from any theistic evolutionists on board, as their plight would be most similar to mine.
                This extreme disjoint paradox between the natural world of the Bible, and the reality of the natural world we perceive through science, and as a matter of fact our senses in our everyday life, is a significant issue that lead me to wider search for a more universal paradigm that is harmonious with the overwhelming evidence. The paradox is most apparent in Genesis, in which the foundation doctrine and dogma of traditional Christianity is anchored, and it is obvious that the authors of the NT and the church fathers believed that Genesis is literal. The Fall of Adam and Eve with Original Sin and the Flood being rooted in the necessity of some form of historical events of Genesis.

                The first conclusion was that the Bible is ancient literature with the theme of the evolving view of God from Genesis to the Book of Revelation 'from the human perspective.' If God exists, and there is a theme of Revelation that is real in the Bible I would have to look elsewhere then traditional Christianity for Revelation to be real in our world.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2014, 07:58 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This extreme disjoint paradox between the natural world of the Bible, and the reality of the natural world we perceive through science, and as a matter of fact our senses in our everyday life, is a significant issue that lead me to wider search for a more universal paradigm that is harmonious with the overwhelming evidence. The paradox is most apparent in Genesis, in which the foundation doctrine and dogma of traditional Christianity is anchored, and it is obvious that the authors of the NT and the church fathers believed that Genesis is literal. The Fall of Adam and Eve with Original Sin and the Flood being rooted in the necessity of some form of historical events of Genesis.

                  The first conclusion was that the Bible is ancient literature with the theme of the evolving view of God from Genesis to the Book of Revelation 'from the human perspective.' If God exists, and there is a theme of Revelation that is real in the Bible I would have to look elsewhere then traditional Christianity for Revelation to be real in our world.
                  Or simply engage in a little philosophical or theological reflection about the nature of revelation or ancient texts. Even simple common sense need not require a whole new Paradigm of Revelation.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Or simply engage in a little philosophical or theological reflection about the nature of revelation or ancient texts. Even simple common sense need not require a whole new Paradigm of Revelation.
                    I engage in far more then a 'little' philosophical or theological reflection, but despite the efforts to untie the Gordian knot 'disjoint paradox' to reveal a solution, a nice sharp sword does the trick. My view grew from the proposition 'nothing (shunya) is necessary or required.' The alternative 'within the box' is that some Biblical version of an ancient world view is necessary or 'required,' maybe reworked to make one comfortable with the evidence.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2014, 12:21 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I engage in far more then a 'little' philosophical or theological reflection, but despite the efforts to untie the Gordian knot 'disjoint paradox' to reveal a solution, a nice sharp sword does the trick. My view grew from the proposition 'nothing (shunya) is necessary or required.' The alternative is that some Biblical version of an ancient world view is necessary or 'required.'
                      False dichotomy. But, I'm glad to hear that you do not feel a new Revelation is required.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        False dichotomy. But, I'm glad to hear that you do not feel a new Revelation is required.
                        I do not believe that anything is 'required nor necessary' from the fallible human perspective. No dichotomy presented, because in reality there are at least a thousand possible choices, including it is all hogwash and a product of human imagination and fears.

                        A better example of a common theistic false dichotomy is either Christianity is true, or atheism is true and God does not exist.

                        'In reality I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.'
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2014, 12:30 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          I do not believe that anything is 'required nor necessary' from the fallible human perspective. No dichotomy presented, because in reality there are at least a thousand possible choices, including it is all hogwash and a product of human imagination and fears.

                          A better example of a common theistic false dichotomy is either Christianity is true, or atheism is true and God does not exist.

                          'In reality I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.'
                          But you did present a false dichotomy when you said:

                          "My view grew from the proposition 'nothing (shunya) is necessary or required.' The alternative is that some Biblical version of an ancient world view is necessary or 'required.'"

                          As you now acknowledge, there are indeed many, many alternatives. The alternative that you yourself brought up earlier in this thread was some kind of new Revelation. I'm glad that you have already agreed with me that this is not necessary.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            But you did present a false dichotomy when you said:

                            "My view grew from the proposition 'nothing (shunya) is necessary or required.' The alternative is that some Biblical version of an ancient world view is necessary or 'required.'"
                            A little miswording on my part. I should have said, The Christian alternative is . . .

                            I had edited it to read: "The alternative 'within the box' is that some Biblical version of an ancient world view is necessary or 'required,' maybe reworked to make one comfortable with the evidence."



                            As you now acknowledge, there are indeed many, many alternatives. The alternative that you yourself brought up earlier in this thread was some kind of new Revelation. I'm glad that you have already agreed with me that this is not necessary.
                            The alternative I actually present is a continuous evolving universal Revelation, and not just a new Revelation. This actually what the Bible shows over a given period of time from Genesis to the Book of Revelation.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2014, 05:42 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              A little miswording on my part. I should have said, The Christian alternative is . . .

                              The alternative I actually present is a continuous evolving universal Revelation, and not just a new Revelation. This actually what the Bible shows over a given period of time from Genesis to the Book of Revelation.
                              I'm still waiting, in the other thread, to understand how you distinguish or differentiate Revelation from mere theological reflection on what has previously been perceived as revelation. Sometimes it sounds as if you are speaking of a new Revelation that supplants prior revelation(s) or dispensations or manifestations or cycles. If one of these older cycles or manifestations or dispensations ends, does some new kind of something or other take its place? It seems to me that comparable progress in theological reflection occurs in many traditions but you seem to want to define that as merely from a human perspective and somehow less than Revelation as received by Baha'i. Feel free to clarify in the Revelation thread. But, in line with what I have been saying about parallel theological reflection and progress in other religious traditions, I cannot agree that there is only one Christian alternative, but many. Likewise in Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.
                              Last edited by robrecht; 07-02-2014, 06:05 PM.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment

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