Tweet
What is the evidence for the Trinity? Specifically, how well does scripture support the claim that Jesus is equal to God? I am going to start by looking at verses cited by this web page, though I note that it is not addressing quite this question:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-proof-texts.htm
This page, which I found later, does attempt to address this exact question, and some points come from there.
http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/arti...equal-with-god
Old Testament
Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 all have God refered to in the plural. The argument goes that this must be God and Jesus together. While that is possible, a more likely explanation is that these verses come from a polytheistic tradition, and it refers to the god El and his wife or consort Asherah. El was the father of Yahweh, and the Bible does a good job of combining the two.
I appreciate Christians will reject that view, but nevertheless the trinity claims that all three parts co-exist and are equal. Whatever way you read it, at best refering to God in the plural can only show two or more beings present. It cannot hope to show that they are equal or that they are also one being.
Genesis 18 to 19 describes God appearing to Abraham in human form. This is assumed to be Jesus, though the text itself gives no reason to suppose this is true. God also appeared to Adam and Eve and had to go looking for them (Genesis 3:9), so we know the Bible authors believed God could take human form (and in very early texts, they probably assumed God was man-like in appearance, just as the Romans assumed Jupiter was man-like; remember, Genesis has man created in God's image - again, I appreciate Christians will reject this view).
And as before, even if we assume this is Jesus, why should we imagine Jesus is equal to God?
The web page invokes Isaiah, but it relies on John to reintepret the text, so I will just see what it says about John.
Then there is Micah 5:2. Let us see some context:
So Micah is prophesising someone coming from the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah (and the text is clear that it is talking of a clan, not a place) who will get eight commanders to stand against the Assyrian invaders. This is nothing to do with Jesus!
New Testament
So now we turn to the New Testament, which we might expect to have rather more evidence.
Jesus explains this away himself! Just as a prophet is given the authority to perform miracles, so he can be given the authority to forgive sins - afterall, forgiving sins is easier than healing a paralysed man
I have no idea how this supports the trinity. Anyone?
Again, I do not get this. Sure, the three parts of the trinity appear in the same sentence, but that does not make them the same thing or make them equal.
Nothing here to suggest Jesus is equal to God, just that God regards him highly.
Same again. Nothing that says Jesus is equal to God.
The Gospel of John
By far the most evidence comes from John. I find that interesting, as John is known to give its own unique view of the life of Jesus. It is rather more developed, theologically, and usually dated after the other gospels and the Pauline epistles.
Certainly John holds that Jesus is holy and more than just a man. John indicates a Jesus who is eternal, who has been around since the start of the universe; none of the other books of the NT indicate that as far as I am aware. But does John hold Jesus as equal to God?
So Jesus has existed from the start, but nothing to indicate Jesus is equal to God.
This might be the best verse so far. But think about it. This is reporting the reactions of the Jews. It does not actually say Jesus was equal to God, it says the Jews objected because they thought Jesus was claiming to be equal to God. What if the Jews were wrong?
Let us see some more context:
God has delegated to Jesus. You do not delegate to an equal, you delegate to a subordinate. God is the boss; it is God who chooses who will do the judging. As Jesus admits, "the Son can do nothing by himself", it is only through God.
It is clear here that Jesus is considered to be heavenly by John, but it is also clear that Jesus is subordinate to God. Jesus is acting as God's messenger, giving God's message, not their shared message. Jesus is very clear on this "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me".
The claim is Jesus saw Abraham. that does not make him equal to God. If he was equal to God, why would he hide himself?
Wow, verse 30 looks like a slam-dunk!
But wait, verse 29 says Jesus' his father is greater than all. Note that Jesus is establishing his relationship to God as being distict from God, and then saying God is greater than everything.
When Jesus says he and God are one, I would suggest he means they are of the same nature, specifically, just as no one will steal a sheep (i.e., a follower) from God, no one shall steal one from Jesus either.
The text continues:
Let us start at the end, which is a reference to Psalm 82:6 "" This appears to be talking about human rulers, as it later says they will die like men. So Jesus is presumably pointing out that in the Bible God describes some people as 'gods', so how can it be blasphemy to do likewise?
This could be a reference to Isaiah 6, were Isaiah saw God. But isaiah saw seraphim too, and spoke of them too. Why should we not conclude that Jesus was one of them?
That does not make Jesus the equal of God, however.
Do these verses mean that Jesus is God? I think not. Anymore than watching a football game on TV is the same as being right there at the stadium. Jesus is saying that you will see God through him, not that he is God (otherwise, why not say "I am God").
Further Evidence Against Jesus and God Being Equals
Why does Jesus pray to himself? It makes no sense. Jesus prays at numerous points in the NT, and it is clear he is praying to a superior being, not to himself, not to an equal.
Why would Satan offer this authority to Jesus if Jesus was God or was equal to God? Jesus would already have more authority than Satan. For this to make any sense, and for this to be in any way a real temptation, Jesus must have less authority than Satan, who in turn has less authority than God.
Here Jesus is asking God to take away his duty to die on the cross (i.e., the cup). Why would Jesus do that if he was God? How could an angel, clearly a lesser being than God, give strength to Jesus if Jesus was equal to God?
If you believe in the trinity, then Jesus is calling out to himself, wondering why he has himself forsaken himself!
Here Jesus shows a clear distinction between himself and the Holy Spirit. Talking against the Holy Spirit, an aspect of god, is blasphemy and unforgivable. Talking against Jesus, a human being (son of man) is forgivable.
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-proof-texts.htm
This page, which I found later, does attempt to address this exact question, and some points come from there.
http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/arti...equal-with-god
Old Testament
Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 all have God refered to in the plural. The argument goes that this must be God and Jesus together. While that is possible, a more likely explanation is that these verses come from a polytheistic tradition, and it refers to the god El and his wife or consort Asherah. El was the father of Yahweh, and the Bible does a good job of combining the two.
I appreciate Christians will reject that view, but nevertheless the trinity claims that all three parts co-exist and are equal. Whatever way you read it, at best refering to God in the plural can only show two or more beings present. It cannot hope to show that they are equal or that they are also one being.
Genesis 18 to 19 describes God appearing to Abraham in human form. This is assumed to be Jesus, though the text itself gives no reason to suppose this is true. God also appeared to Adam and Eve and had to go looking for them (Genesis 3:9), so we know the Bible authors believed God could take human form (and in very early texts, they probably assumed God was man-like in appearance, just as the Romans assumed Jupiter was man-like; remember, Genesis has man created in God's image - again, I appreciate Christians will reject this view).
And as before, even if we assume this is Jesus, why should we imagine Jesus is equal to God?
The web page invokes Isaiah, but it relies on John to reintepret the text, so I will just see what it says about John.
Then there is Micah 5:2. Let us see some context:
[b]
New Testament
So now we turn to the New Testament, which we might expect to have rather more evidence.
Jesus explains this away himself! Just as a prophet is given the authority to perform miracles, so he can be given the authority to forgive sins - afterall, forgiving sins is easier than healing a paralysed man
Romans 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."
2 Corinthians 13:14 and Philippians 2:1-2 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Philippians 2:9-11 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Revelation 22:3 "And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him."
The Gospel of John
By far the most evidence comes from John. I find that interesting, as John is known to give its own unique view of the life of Jesus. It is rather more developed, theologically, and usually dated after the other gospels and the Pauline epistles.
Certainly John holds that Jesus is holy and more than just a man. John indicates a Jesus who is eternal, who has been around since the start of the universe; none of the other books of the NT indicate that as far as I am aware. But does John hold Jesus as equal to God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Let us see some more context:
God has delegated to Jesus. You do not delegate to an equal, you delegate to a subordinate. God is the boss; it is God who chooses who will do the judging. As Jesus admits, "the Son can do nothing by himself", it is only through God.
It is clear here that Jesus is considered to be heavenly by John, but it is also clear that Jesus is subordinate to God. Jesus is acting as God's messenger, giving God's message, not their shared message. Jesus is very clear on this "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me".
John 8:58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Wow, verse 30 looks like a slam-dunk!
But wait, verse 29 says Jesus' his father is greater than all. Note that Jesus is establishing his relationship to God as being distict from God, and then saying God is greater than everything.
When Jesus says he and God are one, I would suggest he means they are of the same nature, specifically, just as no one will steal a sheep (i.e., a follower) from God, no one shall steal one from Jesus either.
The text continues:
Let us start at the end, which is a reference to Psalm 82:6 "" This appears to be talking about human rulers, as it later says they will die like men. So Jesus is presumably pointing out that in the Bible God describes some people as 'gods', so how can it be blasphemy to do likewise?
This could be a reference to Isaiah 6, were Isaiah saw God. But isaiah saw seraphim too, and spoke of them too. Why should we not conclude that Jesus was one of them?
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."
John 12:45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me"
John 14:9-10 "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"
Further Evidence Against Jesus and God Being Equals
Why does Jesus pray to himself? It makes no sense. Jesus prays at numerous points in the NT, and it is clear he is praying to a superior being, not to himself, not to an equal.
Why would Satan offer this authority to Jesus if Jesus was God or was equal to God? Jesus would already have more authority than Satan. For this to make any sense, and for this to be in any way a real temptation, Jesus must have less authority than Satan, who in turn has less authority than God.
Here Jesus is asking God to take away his duty to die on the cross (i.e., the cup). Why would Jesus do that if he was God? How could an angel, clearly a lesser being than God, give strength to Jesus if Jesus was equal to God?
If you believe in the trinity, then Jesus is calling out to himself, wondering why he has himself forsaken himself!
Here Jesus shows a clear distinction between himself and the Holy Spirit. Talking against the Holy Spirit, an aspect of god, is blasphemy and unforgivable. Talking against Jesus, a human being (son of man) is forgivable.
Comment