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Is Jesus Subordinate To God?

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  • Is Jesus Subordinate To God?

    What is the evidence for the Trinity? Specifically, how well does scripture support the claim that Jesus is equal to God? I am going to start by looking at verses cited by this web page, though I note that it is not addressing quite this question:

    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-proof-texts.htm

    This page, which I found later, does attempt to address this exact question, and some points come from there.
    http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/arti...equal-with-god


    Old Testament

    Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 all have God refered to in the plural. The argument goes that this must be God and Jesus together. While that is possible, a more likely explanation is that these verses come from a polytheistic tradition, and it refers to the god El and his wife or consort Asherah. El was the father of Yahweh, and the Bible does a good job of combining the two.

    I appreciate Christians will reject that view, but nevertheless the trinity claims that all three parts co-exist and are equal. Whatever way you read it, at best refering to God in the plural can only show two or more beings present. It cannot hope to show that they are equal or that they are also one being.

    Genesis 18 to 19 describes God appearing to Abraham in human form. This is assumed to be Jesus, though the text itself gives no reason to suppose this is true. God also appeared to Adam and Eve and had to go looking for them (Genesis 3:9), so we know the Bible authors believed God could take human form (and in very early texts, they probably assumed God was man-like in appearance, just as the Romans assumed Jupiter was man-like; remember, Genesis has man created in God's image - again, I appreciate Christians will reject this view).

    And as before, even if we assume this is Jesus, why should we imagine Jesus is equal to God?

    The web page invokes Isaiah, but it relies on John to reintepret the text, so I will just see what it says about John.

    Then there is Micah 5:2. Let us see some context:
    Micah 5:2 ‘But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    though you are small among the clans[b] of Judah,
    out of you will come for me
    one who will be ruler over Israel,
    whose origins are from of old,
    from ancient times.’

    3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
    until the time when she who is in labour bears a son,
    and the rest of his brothers return
    to join the Israelites.

    4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
    in the strength of the Lord,
    in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
    And they will live securely, for then his greatness
    will reach to the ends of the earth.

    5 And he will be our peace
    when the Assyrians invade our land
    and march through our fortresses.
    We will raise against them seven shepherds,
    even eight commanders,
    So Micah is prophesising someone coming from the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah (and the text is clear that it is talking of a clan, not a place) who will get eight commanders to stand against the Assyrian invaders. This is nothing to do with Jesus!


    New Testament

    So now we turn to the New Testament, which we might expect to have rather more evidence.
    Mark 2:7 ‘Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’
    8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, ‘Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralysed man, "Your sins are forgiven," or to say, "Get up, take your mat and walk"? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.’
    Jesus explains this away himself! Just as a prophet is given the authority to perform miracles, so he can be given the authority to forgive sins - afterall, forgiving sins is easier than healing a paralysed man
    Romans 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."
    I have no idea how this supports the trinity. Anyone?
    2 Corinthians 13:14 and Philippians 2:1-2 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
    Again, I do not get this. Sure, the three parts of the trinity appear in the same sentence, but that does not make them the same thing or make them equal.
    Philippians 2:9-11 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
    Nothing here to suggest Jesus is equal to God, just that God regards him highly.
    Revelation 22:3 "And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him."
    Same again. Nothing that says Jesus is equal to God.


    The Gospel of John

    By far the most evidence comes from John. I find that interesting, as John is known to give its own unique view of the life of Jesus. It is rather more developed, theologically, and usually dated after the other gospels and the Pauline epistles.

    Certainly John holds that Jesus is holy and more than just a man. John indicates a Jesus who is eternal, who has been around since the start of the universe; none of the other books of the NT indicate that as far as I am aware. But does John hold Jesus as equal to God?
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
    So Jesus has existed from the start, but nothing to indicate Jesus is equal to God.
    John 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
    This might be the best verse so far. But think about it. This is reporting the reactions of the Jews. It does not actually say Jesus was equal to God, it says the Jews objected because they thought Jesus was claiming to be equal to God. What if the Jews were wrong?

    Let us see some more context:
    John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defence Jesus said to them, ‘My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.’ 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
    19 Jesus gave them this answer: ‘Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.
    24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
    God has delegated to Jesus. You do not delegate to an equal, you delegate to a subordinate. God is the boss; it is God who chooses who will do the judging. As Jesus admits, "the Son can do nothing by himself", it is only through God.
    John 8:23 But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.’
    25 ‘Who are you?’ they asked.
    ‘Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,’ Jesus replied. 26 ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’
    27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’
    It is clear here that Jesus is considered to be heavenly by John, but it is also clear that Jesus is subordinate to God. Jesus is acting as God's messenger, giving God's message, not their shared message. Jesus is very clear on this "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me".
    John 8:58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
    The claim is Jesus saw Abraham. that does not make him equal to God. If he was equal to God, why would he hide himself?
    25 Jesus answered, ‘I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.’
    Wow, verse 30 looks like a slam-dunk!

    But wait, verse 29 says Jesus' his father is greater than all. Note that Jesus is establishing his relationship to God as being distict from God, and then saying God is greater than everything.

    When Jesus says he and God are one, I would suggest he means they are of the same nature, specifically, just as no one will steal a sheep (i.e., a follower) from God, no one shall steal one from Jesus either.

    The text continues:
    31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’
    33 ‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’
    34 Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are ‘gods’"?
    Let us start at the end, which is a reference to Psalm 82:6 "‘I said, "You are ‘gods’; you are all sons of the Most High." This appears to be talking about human rulers, as it later says they will die like men. So Jesus is presumably pointing out that in the Bible God describes some people as 'gods', so how can it be blasphemy to do likewise?
    John 12:41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
    This could be a reference to Isaiah 6, were Isaiah saw God. But isaiah saw seraphim too, and spoke of them too. Why should we not conclude that Jesus was one of them?
    John 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."
    That does not make Jesus the equal of God, however.
    John 12:45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me"
    John 14:9-10 "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"
    Do these verses mean that Jesus is God? I think not. Anymore than watching a football game on TV is the same as being right there at the stadium. Jesus is saying that you will see God through him, not that he is God (otherwise, why not say "I am God").


    Further Evidence Against Jesus and God Being Equals

    Why does Jesus pray to himself? It makes no sense. Jesus prays at numerous points in the NT, and it is clear he is praying to a superior being, not to himself, not to an equal.
    Luke 4:5-8: "The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours." Jesus answered, "It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’"
    Why would Satan offer this authority to Jesus if Jesus was God or was equal to God? Jesus would already have more authority than Satan. For this to make any sense, and for this to be in any way a real temptation, Jesus must have less authority than Satan, who in turn has less authority than God.
    Luke 22: 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 ‘Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.’ 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
    Here Jesus is asking God to take away his duty to die on the cross (i.e., the cup). Why would Jesus do that if he was God? How could an angel, clearly a lesser being than God, give strength to Jesus if Jesus was equal to God?
    Mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ (which means ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’).
    If you believe in the trinity, then Jesus is calling out to himself, wondering why he has himself forsaken himself!
    Luke 12:8 ‘I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
    Here Jesus shows a clear distinction between himself and the Holy Spirit. Talking against the Holy Spirit, an aspect of god, is blasphemy and unforgivable. Talking against Jesus, a human being (son of man) is forgivable.
    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

  • #2
    There is plenty of evidence that the Lord Jesus is God here:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fo...htower-Society

    Simply put:
    a. Only God is to be prayed to/worshiped.
    b. The Lord Jesus is properly prayed to/worshiped.
    c. Therefore the Lord Jesus is God.

    I wrote that the Lord Jesus is "properly" prayed to/worshiped because there are times in the Bible where idols are offered the same but it was always wrong to do.

    See also here:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...Greg-Deuble%29
    ---------------------------
    In answer to your questions under "Further Evidence Against Jesus and God Being Equals":
    1. God is Triune. The Lord Jesus is not praying to Himself. He is praying to the Father. The Lord Jesus became a man and a servant. As such He would be expected to pray to the Father.
    TDNT: Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8 -> kenow 3, 661, 13-28, cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact.
    A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world, Mt. 28:18: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Cf. the proclamations of the heavenly King in Rev., e.g., concerning Alpha and Omega (5:895, pas, Reicke).
    2. See #1.
    3. See #1
    4. See #1
    5. See the first sentence of #1.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 06-27-2014, 06:39 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Why does Jesus pray to himself? It makes no sense. Jesus prays at numerous points in the NT, and it is clear he is praying to a superior being, not to himself, not to an equal.
      Being subordinate to the Father wouldn't make Jesus less than God, just of lower status than the Father. If this were proven to be the case, it would make certain concepts regarding the trinity invalid, but it would in no way invalidate the principle of the trinity.
      As to the man, Jesus, praying to God, there is no claim by the standard trinitarian precepts (insofar as I can tell), that Jesus in his role as man was equal to God
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        There is plenty of evidence that the Lord Jesus is God here:
        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fo...htower-Society
        If you have an argument, present it. A link to an entire forum is useless.
        Simply put:
        a. Only God is to be prayed to/worshiped.
        b. The Lord Jesus is properly prayed to/worshiped.
        c. Therefore the Lord Jesus is God.

        I wrote that the Lord Jesus is "properly" prayed to/worshiped because there are times in the Bible where idols are offered the same but it was always wrong to do.
        But the first premise, a, is just your opinion. Catholics pray to Mary, so clearly they disagree, and yet they use the same Bible.
        I had a quick look, but it was not clear what you were quoting and what was original to you. With regards to your comment about "lord of lords", that would seem to be a comment about earthly lords and kings, as it is compared to the Roman emperor's title, king of kings. God, in contrast, would be lord of everything.
        In answer to your questions under "Further Evidence Against Jesus and God Being Equals":
        1. God is Triune. The Lord Jesus is not praying to Himself. He is praying to the Father. The Lord Jesus became a man and a servant. As such He would be expected to pray to the Father.
        TDNT: Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8 -> kenow 3, 661, 13-28, cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact.
        A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world, Mt. 28:18: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Cf. the proclamations of the heavenly King in Rev., e.g., concerning Alpha and Omega (5:895, pas, Reicke).
        So you position is that Jesus is less than God during his "lifetime" on earth?

        Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21;...
        Really? Let us see what those verses really say:

        Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

        I see nothing there about Jesus to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". Can you talk me through that? I ask, because it looks like you are just throwing out verses without actually reading them to see if they say what you imagine they do.

        Matthew 12:18 ‘Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
        the one I love, in whom I delight;
        I will put my Spirit on him,
        and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
        19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
        no one will hear his voice in the streets.
        20 A bruised reed he will not break,
        and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out,
        till he has brought justice through to victory.
        21 In his name the nations will put their hope.’


        Again, not seeing anything to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". On the contrary, God says he will aid Jesus by putting his spirit upon him. So in fact with have jesus helping Jesus by putting Jesus' spirit on Jesus. Is that right?
        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
          I see nothing there about Jesus to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". Can you talk me through that? I ask, because it looks like you are just throwing out verses without actually reading them to see if they say what you imagine they do.

          Again, not seeing anything to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". On the contrary, God says he will aid Jesus by putting his spirit upon him. So in fact with have jesus helping Jesus by putting Jesus' spirit on Jesus. Is that right?
          Foudroyant also referenced Philippians 2:5-8

          Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
            If you have an argument, present it. A link to an entire forum is useless.

            But the first premise, a, is just your opinion. Catholics pray to Mary, so clearly they disagree, and yet they use the same Bible.

            I had a quick look, but it was not clear what you were quoting and what was original to you. With regards to your comment about "lord of lords", that would seem to be a comment about earthly lords and kings, as it is compared to the Roman emperor's title, king of kings. God, in contrast, would be lord of everything.

            So you position is that Jesus is less than God during his "lifetime" on earth?


            Really? Let us see what those verses really say:

            Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

            I see nothing there about Jesus to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". Can you talk me through that? I ask, because it looks like you are just throwing out verses without actually reading them to see if they say what you imagine they do.

            Matthew 12:18 ‘Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
            the one I love, in whom I delight;
            I will put my Spirit on him,
            and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
            19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
            no one will hear his voice in the streets.
            20 A bruised reed he will not break,
            and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out,
            till he has brought justice through to victory.
            21 In his name the nations will put their hope.’


            Again, not seeing anything to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". On the contrary, God says he will aid Jesus by putting his spirit upon him. So in fact with have jesus helping Jesus by putting Jesus' spirit on Jesus. Is that right?
            1. The first premise is not my opinion.
            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page15
            See Post #147

            Thus the fact that the Lord Jesus was prayed to/worshiped proves that He is God.

            2. Concerning "Lord of lords" I cited more than one authority that teaches it refers to Christ's equality with God.

            3. My position is that the Lord Jesus was God during His lifetime but took on the form of a servant to the Father.

            4. Matthew 28:18 teaches He laid aside full use of His power. I already cited one source. Shall I cite more?
            Last edited by foudroyant; 06-27-2014, 09:48 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Again, not seeing anything to suggest that "during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power". On the contrary, God says he will aid Jesus by putting his spirit upon him. So in fact with have jesus helping Jesus by putting Jesus' spirit on Jesus. Is that right?
              Philippians 2:6,7 He counted equality with God not to be clung to, but emptied himself, having taken the the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of a man.
              The whole is there, nicely wrapped up, but wait - there's more:
              Heb 2:9,10 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
              Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

              We have the Father helping the Son by putting the Spirit of God on Jesus. - it isn't so difficult to understand when you apply the analogy that a man's own spirit, soul, and body can be considered separately, and that his own spirit can be said on some occasions to be in conflict with his body and on other occasions, to aid the body.
              Last edited by tabibito; 06-27-2014, 11:40 AM.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                What is the evidence for the Trinity?
                Very simple. The church says it. Christians believe it. That settles it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  1. The first premise is not my opinion.
                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page15
                  See Post #147
                  Here it is in full:
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  You don't know that it is a misuse of Mounce but then you add later that it is most certainly a misuse of Mounce.
                  Yeah that makes sense.
                  Go check out page 531 and whatever else you can find in what he wrote concerning "pray" in this section. It's there for anyone to see. Thing is you can't refute it so now you resort to playing this stupid game of denial.
                  NIDNTT: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
                  Catholics and others of their ilk add Mary and countless other "saints" to the mix identifying them as "the living God" as well in that they are also prayed to.
                  Now two sources of pray/prayer are against the blasphemy of praying to anyone/anything else but God alone.
                  I see nothing there that establishes as fact that Christians only pray to God. It is a fact that catholics pray to Mary and to saints to intercede for them, and so it would be entirely possible to pray to Jesus, even if he was not God.
                  Thus the fact that the Lord Jesus was prayed to/worshiped proves that He is God.
                  Not yet it doesn't.
                  2. Concerning "Lord of lords" I cited more than one authority that teaches it refers to Christ's equality with God.
                  But other authorities disagree. Jehovah's witnesses, for example, and historically sects such as Arianism. The question is, what proof do you have that trumps theirs? Why is your authority to be believed and theirs is not?
                  3. My position is that the Lord Jesus was God during His lifetime but took on the form of a servant to the Father.
                  So during his life time, he was subordinate? I ask, because the way you have worded it makes me think there are nuances I am not getting.
                  4. Matthew 28:18 teaches He laid aside full use of His power.
                  Matthew 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

                  Hmm, well I suppose you could read it that way. To me it reads as though up until that time Jesus did not have the stated authority (which perhaps you think too, within Jesus' lifetime), but that he has now been delegated that authority from his superior.

                  Note that he does not say all authority has returned, but that it has been given. Quite telling, it seems to me.
                  I already cited one source. Shall I cite more?
                  Please do. Try to find one that is not ambiguous please.
                  My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I will have a think about Philippians 2...
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                      I will have a think about Philippians 2...
                      Well yes...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                        I will have a think about Philippians 2...
                        Yes work on it. You will come up with some way to distort it so you can deny what it actually says.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                        • #13
                          I see that Pixie doesn't really want to know the truth but just throws out anybody who says anything without any authoritative theological backing.

                          So rather than respond to his endless attempts to deny the Lord Jesus is God I will focus on one of the passages that was cited by him in the OP.

                          Revelation 22:3

                          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...velation-22-3)

                          a. Only God is to receive latreuo.
                          b. The Lord Jesus properly receives latreuo.
                          c. Therefore the Lord Jesus is God.


                          I wrote that the Lord Jesus is "properly receives latreuo" because there are times in the Bible where idols are offered the same but it was always wrong to do.
                          Last edited by foudroyant; 06-27-2014, 08:08 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                            Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 all have God refered to in the plural. The argument goes that this must be God and Jesus together. While that is possible, a more likely explanation is that these verses come from a polytheistic tradition, and it refers to the god El and his wife or consort Asherah. El was the father of Yahweh, and the Bible does a good job of combining the two.
                            The "traditional" Jewish understanding of the plural usage in Genesis 1 is that G-d was consulting with the Heavenly Hosts (angels) during the act of creating man:

                            Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - Rabbi Rashi [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
                            I have been in Minyan discussions where the theory about El and Asherah (a Kabbalah mysticism favorite) is posited as a possible reason for the plural usage in Genesis 1, but it is not a popular notion. Since the discussion is conducted in Hebrew, English and Yiddish (I was still learning Hebrew), every time I heard them say El, I kept thinking of Superman's father Jor-El.

                            NORM
                            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

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                            • #15
                              Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 all have God refered to in the plural. The argument goes that this must be God and Jesus together. While that is possible, a more likely explanation is that these verses come from a polytheistic tradition, and it refers to the god El and his wife or consort Asherah. El was the father of Yahweh, and the Bible does a good job of combining the two.
                              Yes, and Hebrew uses the plural form for singular as an honorific style, very much in the same way as the "royal we" functions for singular:
                              that is to say, "Let US" could mean either more than one or just one - Where it means (in honorific usage) just one, the verb shows as much, because it is conjugated to the singular: In "let us create", "create" is conjugated as singular.

                              Demonstrating, switching to perfect tense, the Hebrew does not say that "gods have created", but ,"gods has created". "has created" shows that "gods" is singular, not plural.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 06-27-2014, 08:59 PM.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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