Originally posted by Darth Executor
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Christianity Is Dangerous
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βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWow. I think Darth Executor is making MehGerbil's point for him.
I'm not ignoring this one because in this case your comment is just plain bizarre. I agree with MehGerbil's point (with the difference being that I think it's a good thing), so of course I'd be making it for him. What I am also doing, however, is pointing out that MehGerbil's way of thinking is seriously flawed, and what he perceives as a flaw in other Christians is also present in his type of thinking, with the difference being that in his type of thinking the flaw is both an actual flaw AND fatal. MehGerbil's Christianity is incoherent and held together only by cognitive dissonance."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostI generally ignore the one liner crowd because people like you rarely have anything interesting or useful to say.
I'm not ignoring this one because in this case your comment is just plain bizarre. I agree with MehGerbil's point (with the difference being that I think it's a good thing), so of course I'd be making it for him. What I am also doing, however, is pointing out that MehGerbil's way of thinking is seriously flawed, and what he perceives as a flaw in other Christians is also present in his type of thinking, with the difference being that in his type of thinking the flaw is both an actual flaw AND fatal. MehGerbil's Christianity is incoherent and held together only by cognitive dissonance.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSorry if you're having difficulty understanding or accepting this viewpoint. Personally, I would not want government leaders who comprehend why mass slaughter is sometimes necessary in the name of their God."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostI'm not having difficulty understanding it. I don't accept it because it's incoherent for reasons I've already explained and which have been thoroughly ignored (particularly by Gerbil, who decided to start another thread to whine about the same thing he got a shellacking on in the other thread). There's no need to be sorry, because I'm right and you're wrong. If anything I should apologize for not being able to find a way to make the truth palatable to you and others on an emotional level.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Trout View PostDarthy?
Are you gonna kill some people?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostFunny, Israel didn't have a king when God slaughtered a ton of Egyptians because of one man's stubbornness. And when it had a king it was God ordering the slaughters. I hate to break it to you but you are doing with the OT what you claim the rest of us are doing with European history, and an atheist is a lot more likely to be butthurt about the OT, where massacres were ordered by God Himself, than by Europe, where massacres were ordered by men and could be dismissed by the more reasonable as inevitable human folly. They're even more likely to be butthurt about going to hell for being atheist(not actually true but in practice it ammounts to the same thing) than they are about human slaughter. Christianity is incompatible with many modern Western values that you preach and falsely attribute to the Gospel.
I'm not denying God the ability to carry out whatever culling of the herd he so desires.
There is a pretty big gap between that and King Darth running around blowing up abortion clinics in the name of Jesus.
Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostChristianity is incompatible with many modern Western values that you preach and falsely attribute to the Gospel.
What you have done is packaged up all your frustration with the collapse of 'Christianity' in the West and dropped them in my lap.
But just for giggles, name ONE Western value I've falsely attributed to the Gospel OR retract the ridiculous accusation.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen it should be just as rational for us to be wary of atheists in power because of the historical record of what atheists did in in the past when they had power.
This isn't a game of OUR reputation vs. THEIR reputation.
If it is rational for a person to be leery of Christianity because of a long standing pattern of abuse then we need to stop treating skeptics like moon bats when they cite those abuses as reasons for hesitation. <-- That point stands regardless of the reputation of atheists or any other group. It makes sense for us to understand that they've a very rational (even if we contend it is unfair) perspective and quit trying to talk them out of it.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Trout View PostWould you off some peeps if the church told you to?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by MehGerbil View PostAgain, if the goal is to communicate with skeptics I'm not sure what you accomplish by asserting this rather obvious truth.
This isn't a game of OUR reputation vs. THEIR reputation.
If it is rational for a person to be leery of Christianity because of a long standing pattern of abuse then we need to stop treating skeptics like moon bats when they cite those abuses as reasons for hesitation.
That point stands regardless of the reputation of atheists or any other group. It makes sense for us to understand that they've a very rational (even if we contend it is unfair) perspective and quit trying to talk them out of it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo MG, the point is that the argument is a non sequitur. Are we to defend against every inane objection?
You and I both know there is a big difference between someone who is genuinely attempting to live a gracious Spirit led life and someone that uses God as an excuse to do terrible things. That Spirit led person may make mistakes but eventually as they mature they're going to be moving away from murderous rampages and move towards sacrificial living. We believe this because we believe there is a God anxious to transform the lives of the humble and seeking child. We recognize there are frauds and that there are the real things - the difference being God.
However, a skeptic isn't going to see the difference because the difference (God) doesn't exist in his world view.
When you claim there is a difference you're invoking what he perceives to be nothing more than another sign of your insanity.
So when we ask the skeptic to believe "oh, I'm different because I'm actually in touch with God" we're asking him to take as an excuse something he has already told us he doesn't believe, that being, the existence of God. What makes this worse is our excuse (in contact with God in a genuine way, the 'correct' interpretation, etc) is the same excuse given by every lunatic since Constantine. If a skeptic does take that excuse it isn't because he believes in God, it's because he's found that you're insanity doesn't appear to be the dangerous sort.
I'm not attacking authentic Christianity.
I'm trying to illustrate how authentic Christians can communicate better with skeptics.
Now if you didn't get that I cannot help you.
I'm not ignoring you further to be mean - it's just that I cannot communicate this more clearly than I've done.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Trout View PostIf You were leader of the church, which people so you think you'd kill first?Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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