Originally posted by shunyadragon
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOnce again, "good theological reflection or interpretation." Are you seriously trying to claim that the people of the Universal House of Justice, in writing this piece, did not do any theological interpretation???Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSeriously no. The members use theological reflection, but in this case I described the process in this situation. We define Theological Reflection differently.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut what about theological interpretation? Why do you keep ignoring that? Are you denying that this piece from the Universal House of Justice is a work of theological interpretation?
I checked, the primary source is the Katab-I-Aqdas, and it simply states that the Administrative structure of the Baha'i Faith will be a hierarchy of elected Houses of Justices with a supreme body of nine the Universal House of Justice. The correction of the text concerning 'Rijal' referring to 'men' or 'men and women.' The consultation of further texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, and Shoghi Effendi were studying and referred to make the determination that 'Rijal' was a gender neutral word.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-06-2014, 08:03 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI am not ignoring it in this example. You are confusing a disagreement as to what is 'Theological Reflection, and not a problem of ignoring your question.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis problem is not a matter of an 'interpretation' problem of the text. It is a matter of proper translation of the text.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI checked, the primary source is the Katab-I-Aqdas, and it simply states that the Administrative structure of the Baha'i Faith will be a hierarchy of elected Houses of Justices with a supreme body of nine the Universal House of Justice. The correction of the text concerning 'Rijal' referring to 'men' or 'men and women.' The consultation of further texts by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, and Shoghi Effendi were studying and referred to make the determination that 'Rijal' was a gender neutral word.
βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI don't know why you keep bringing this up. The fact that I and others do not accept a limitation of of theological reflection as only applying to one's own personal life (or perhaps to a small group of undefined size), has no relevance to my question.
You have failed to cite these mythical others that agree with your interpretation of Theological Reflection.
Please read the statement of the Universal House of Justice. We are not merely speaking of the translation of a text but also of the cultural behavior and sexism of some leaders. Note also where and when women were first allowed to serve on some of these bodies--in the English speaking world, where there was less sexism. To merely speak of this as an issue of correct translation is to avoid the larger issues that one should not be afraid to discuss.
So, how do you account for the differing interpretations/translations and the divergent practice on the part of some Baha'i leaders? Please specifically address the interpretation/translation discussed by the Universal House of Justice.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is very relevant to your question, because we disagree, and I have answered the question to the best of my ability.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou have failed to cite these mythical others that agree with your interpretation of Theological Reflection.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe references cited are clear and concise, and they are now accepted by the Baha'is of the world. It was a correction of a translation problem, and the issue is resolved. Individual human problems of 'Sexism' and individual interpretations represent human problems that as long as humans are humans, the human problems will always remain an issueβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostHow is it relevant? Unless you believe that your definition of theological reflection also applies to 'theological interpretation'? Is that the case?
I have not failed to cite these theologians. I have not tried to cite them because I do not see how this has any relevance. If you want to define 'theological interpretation' with the same limitations that you want to apply to 'theological reflection', let me know.
If this is simply a matter of a mistranslation of an Arabic/Farsi word, why is it that it was first understood correctly by people in America?
Actually most Baha'i scholars fluent in Arabic and Persian from Iran and other Arabic countries now reside in the USA or Haifa Isreal, because of the attempts to exterminate Baha'is from Iran and the Arabic world. United States universities remain the greatest source of academics in this field, next are France, Great Britain and Germany.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-06-2014, 02:22 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOnly at the personal level.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou have not supplied an outside source defining 'Theological Reflection' as you believe it is used.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAll you did was respond with a definition of 'Theological' and one for 'Reflections.' I responded in detail why the words do not define a phrase. Still waiting for a definition provided by another source.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, it is a mistranslation, but it is not an issue who discovered the problem. Can you give a source as to who specifically discovered the mistranslation? Actually, there are about ~50% or more of the writings of Baha'u'llah remain untranslated in the archives at the World Center on Mount Carmel and they are currently being translated by staff there. I have seen a number of editions of Baha'u'llah's works retranslated, corrected and republished over the years including at least three editions of the Katab-I-aqdas.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo, for you personally, 'theological reflection' is the same thing as 'theological interpretation'--is that what you are saying?
And, if that is the case, you would like to apply for yourself the same limitations to 'theological interpretation' that you glean from the definition of 'theological reflection' that you provided--is that correct? In other words, you think that theological interpretation/reflection should only be applied to the personal experiences of an individual or small group and should not be applied to matters of doctrine. Is that correct?
Correct. I do not understand why this has any relevance to my questions of you. If I understand the above correctly, it is relevant because you are claiming that you cannot interpret doctrine theologically. Is that correct?
Huh? I've told you how I use the phrase--the phrase consists of two words and these two words are used exactly as they are defined. I do not use the phrase with any secret meaning that is not apparent to anyone who understands what each of the words mean.
You are the one claiming it is merely a matter of a mistranslation--you should know who discovered the mistranslation. I would rather you discuss the larger issues involved, but you seem reluctant to do this.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-06-2014, 04:32 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI will conditionally agree, but my dialogue with you is like finding the rocks in the quicksand. The matters of Revelation, Doctrine and Dogma in Theological Reflection is contemplation, reflection meditation and prayer to give one purpose, understanding, and inward meaning of the nature of belief in their lives at the personal level.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNot correct and confusing.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI did not say one cannot interpret doctrine (theologically?). I have said that Theological Reflection in and of itself is not equivalent to the interpretation beyond the personal level.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI did say it was a secret meaning. It appears to be your own personal meaning and interpretation of the 'phrase' that makes communication difficult.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou have failed to present a second source that defines the phrase the way you do. It is pretty standard English that the definition of individual words is not necessarily equivalent to the phrase.
But since you refuse to accept my repeated statement that my use of these two words are not different than how they are commonly defined, just for fun, I googled ‘theological reflection’ for you. The first hit was the definition you provided. The other definitions I have cited below are all from the second Google hit:
http://divinity.vanderbilt.edu/acade...reflection.php
As expected, they demonstrate a variety and range of ways of understanding this phrase. While some might want to apply certain limitations, not necessarily all of your limitations, others use the phrase the same as I do. The first is your definition:
What Is Theological Reflection?
A Guide from the Rev. Dr. Richard Dickey, 6/2006
http://www.ants.edu/pdf/Theological_...n_R_Dickey.pdf
"... Current understandings of theological reflection are characterized by their focus on life experiences rather than on a doctrine, belief or practice. ..."
So, by this 'defintion', perhaps my usage is old fashioned in his opinion. I can live with that. I do not know Reverend Dickey and cannot account for his motives in why he might not want me or others to reflect theologically upon doctrines, beliefs, or practice. Perhaps he does not want to open up a can of worms. I did know Avery Cardinal Dulles, and he was also reluctant to have lay people reflecting upon doctrine, but despite his doctrinal conservatism, he certainly did encourage theological reflection upon much more than mere personal life experience and he was quite willing to speak of ‘continuing revelation’:
Avery Cardinal Dulles:
The subject matter on which theological reflection focuses is not the doctrinal themes of traditional theology (like, Trinity, Christology, church and sacraments), but great human problems of the day as, for instance, war, oppression, poverty, pollution, and the breakdown of human community on various levels. The assumption here is that Revelation is to be found not so much in clear directives from the past as in the dimension of ultimacy within our own experience. God's revelation to our predecessors afford paradigms or guidelines for the present; they serve to suggest and open up the depth-dimensions in the experience of the believer today. In this sense, one may speak of 'continuing revelation'.
Others speak of theological reflection without prohibiting the subject matter:
Roberta Bondi:
For me, theological reflection is a three-way conversation among our ancestors in the church, my everyday experience and God. The conversation calls me to bring the whole of who I am - intellect and emotion, memory and hope, action and contemplation, wounds and prayer - in order that I may live out our common calling to love God and neighbor.
Henri Nouwen:
Few ministers and priests think theologically. Most of them have been educated in a climate in which the behavioral sciences, such as psychology and sociology, so dominated the educational milieu that little true theology was being learned. Most Christian leaders today raise psychological and sociological questions even though they frame them in scriptural terms. Real theological thinking ... is hard to find in the practice of ministry. Without solid theological reflection, future leaders will be little more than pseudo-psychologists, pseudo-sociologists, pseudo-social workers. They will think of themselves as enablers, facilitators, role models, father or mother figures, big brothers or big sisters, and so on, and thus join the countless men and women who make a living by trying to help their fellow human beings to cope with the stresses and strains of everyday living. But that has little to do with Christian leadership because the Christian leader thinks, speaks and acts in the name of Jesus, who came to free humanity from the power of death and open the way to eternal life. To be such a leader it is essential to be able to discern from moment to moment how God acts in human history and how the personal, communal, national and international events that occur during our lives can make us more and more sensitive to the ways in which we are led to the cross and through the cross to the resurrection...
James D. Whitehead and Evelyn Eaton Whitehead:
In every age the community of faith must discover the shape of its ministry. We must discern how we are to be faithful to the gospel and effective in our mission: to celebrate God's saving presence and to contribute, by word and action and sacrament, to the fullness of this presence - the coming of the Kingdom. Theological reflection is an essential tool in this discernment of contemporary ministry. … Theological reflection in ministry involves three sources of religiously relevant information – Christian Tradition, the experience of the community of faith, and the resources of the culture.
Howard W. Stone and James O. Duke:
Serious thinking about the meaning of Christian faith can and does take place anywhere, It goes on while conversing, worshiping, weathering a life crisis, keeping up with the latest news, working, taking some time out for recreation. Wherever and whenever it occurs, theological reflection is not only a personal but also an interactive, dialogical and community-related process. The voices of others are heard. Some of these voices, like those of the biblical writers, come from texts of centuries past. Others are those of our contemporaries. Still others are our own. These voices offer us food for thought to be heeded or debated or improved upon or set aside as unhelpful. To engage in theological reflection is to join an ongoing conversation with others that began long before we ever came along and will continue long after we have passed away.
Patricia O'Connell Killen and John de Beer:
Theological reflection is the discipline of exploring individual and corporate experience in conversation with the wisdom of a religious heritage. The conversation is a genuine dialogue that seeks to hear from our own beliefs, actions, and perspectives, as well as those of the tradition. It respects the integrity of both. Theological reflection therefore may confirm, challenge, clarify, and expand how we understand our own experience and how we understand the religious tradition. The outcome is new truth and meaning for living.
Contrary to your misunderstanding of my view of theological reflection, I do not deny the personal experiential dimension nor do I say that its purpose is new revelation, but I do note in multiple examples in the history of the Christian churches where it has contributed to the development or definition of dogmas by popes and councils as well as the denial of previously held doctrines in large, not merely small, groups or denominations. You may not want to call these examples ‘theological reflection’, which is fine with me, I am not trying to insist upon any particular definition, or my own phrasing, but you should at least be able to tell me what words you would use to describe these concrete phenomenon, something which you have up until now refused to do. You may wish to deny that continuing revelation or doctrinal development, or whatever you want to call it, is allowed in the Baha’i tradition for your spiritual truths or spiritual laws, and that’s fine too, as far as I’m concerned, but it would be pretty foolish for you to deny the facts of history in the Christian church, in which doctrinal understanding has indeed evolved, new dogmas have been defined, older doctrines have been abandoned by some. It is just the way it is. Whether you call it ‘theological reflection’ or ‘theological interpretation’ or ‘continuing revelation’ or something else entirely is irrelevant to me.
Now are you finally ready to deal with some of the subtleties of the text from the Universal House of Justice?
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, I do not know, because I have no reference that this is the case. You are the one that claims the error was discovered in the USA. That is possible, but I find no reference that that is the case. When the UHJ makes this sort of communication the work on translation and editing are usually done at the archives in Haifa, Israel on Mount Carmel. As I said previously the writings have undergone editing and corrections over the years, and this most often takes place in the Archives in Haifa Israel, and is an ongoing process. I have been to Haifa Israel, and met some the staff at the archives.
I understand that you may not want to read an authoritative statement of the Universal House of Justice critically, but I would like you to at least try to account for your own sense of Revelation in this thread. If you do not want to do that, that's fine too, but then you can hardly expect me to revise my impression.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Contradictory or Continual Revelation, Development of Doctrine, or a Difference of Theological Opinion?
Source: Compiled by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice, Bahá’í World Centre, January 1986
Page 13
27: As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House…
As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice: there is a Tablet from ‘Abdul-Bahá in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men, and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed and appreciated in the future. In the local as well as the national Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is, therefore, only to the International (sic) House that they cannot be elected. The Bahá’ís should accept this statement of the Master in a spirit of deep faith, confident that there is a divine guidance and wisdom behind it which will be gradually unfolded to the eyes of the world.
(28 July 1936 to an individual believer)
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/CW...=highlight#gr1
The appointed body of the Universal House of Justice in its first stage, once and for all, herby resolves that:
Based upon the Explicit Holy Text and the clear and manifest proofs and evidences contained within, and in accordance with, the revealed statements of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice shall be comprised of both men and women.
And furthermore, that:
The membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice is constituted within the Baha'i Administrative Order, that is, the membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice forms an irremovable part of the constitution of the Universal House of Justice in all its stages.
And therefore, that:
In conformity with, and in enforcement of, the Explicit Holy Text, if women are not elected to the Universal House of Justice than that election shall be declared invalid.
[Approved this eighteenth day of Mulk in the year one hundred and fifty-two of the Baha'i Era (February 24, 1996)]
http://uhj.net/women-on-uhj.html
Baha'is to elect Universal House of Justice
22 April 2008
Any male age 21 and over is eligible for election to the Universal House of Justice. Both women and men serve on all other Bahá’í institutions—international, continental, national and local.
http://news.bahai.org/story/620
Membership of the Universal House of Justice
It is notable that out of all Bahá'í institutions, whether elective or appointive, the Universal House of Justice is the sole instance where the membership is restricted to men. Bahá'u'lláh gave no reason for this provision of the Sacred Text. ...
Copyright 2014, Bahá'í International Community
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-0-0-3.htmlLast edited by robrecht; 11-06-2014, 08:20 PM.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostContradictory or Continual Revelation, Development of Doctrine, or a Difference of Theological Opinion?
Source: Compiled by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice, Bahá’í World Centre, January 1986
Page 13
27: As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House…
As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice: there is a Tablet from ‘Abdul-Bahá in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men, and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed and appreciated in the future. In the local as well as the national Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is, therefore, only to the International (sic) House that they cannot be elected. The Bahá’ís should accept this statement of the Master in a spirit of deep faith, confident that there is a divine guidance and wisdom behind it which will be gradually unfolded to the eyes of the world.
(28 July 1936 to an individual believer)
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/CW...=highlight#gr1
The appointed body of the Universal House of Justice in its first stage, once and for all, herby resolves that:
Based upon the Explicit Holy Text and the clear and manifest proofs and evidences contained within, and in accordance with, the revealed statements of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice shall be comprised of both men and women.
And furthermore, that:
The membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice is constituted within the Baha'i Administrative Order, that is, the membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice forms an irremovable part of the constitution of the Universal House of Justice in all its stages.
And therefore, that:
In conformity with, and in enforcement of, the Explicit Holy Text, if women are not elected to the Universal House of Justice than that election shall be declared invalid.
[Approved this eighteenth day of Mulk in the year one hundred and fifty-two of the Baha'i Era (February 24, 1996)]
http://uhj.net/women-on-uhj.html
Baha'is to elect Universal House of Justice
22 April 2008
Any male age 21 and over is eligible for election to the Universal House of Justice. Both women and men serve on all other Bahá’í institutions—international, continental, national and local.
http://news.bahai.org/story/620
Membership of the Universal House of Justice
It is notable that out of all Bahá'í institutions, whether elective or appointive, the Universal House of Justice is the sole instance where the membership is restricted to men. Bahá'u'lláh gave no reason for this provision of the Sacred Text. ...
Copyright 2014, Bahá'í International Community
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-0-0-3.htmlGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOK the present decision of the UHJ is that only men may be elected to the UHJβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostDid they change their mind? Is there more than one Universal House of Justice?Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-06-2014, 09:07 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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