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Lord, Lunatic, or Liar - False Dichotomy?

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  • Lord, Lunatic, or Liar - False Dichotomy?

    This started on the FB page:



    http://www.thepoachedegg.net/the-poa...is-divine.html


    Originally posted by Brandon Card
    There is another possibility other than the ones C.S. Lewis presents. Those who wrote about Jesus could be the Liars and/or lunatics.

    Yesterday at 8:12am · Like · 1..


    Originally posted by Archena T Nighthawk
    Liar is irrational - there's no predictable benefit (the advance of Christianity runs significantly counter to the norm. Usually killing the Leader kills the movement, not the opposite.) Lunatic is also irrational - conflicts with the evidence (lunatic...See More

    Yesterday at 8:32am · Like · 3..

    Originally posted by Brandon Card
    I am registered.

    Handel is damanar....


    I was merely commenting on the false dilemma the auther of this article creates. Wasn't actually debating whether it was true or not.more than happy to go down that route too though.

    Yesterday at 9:39am · Like

    Originally posted by Archena T Nighthawk
    Cool!

    It's not a false dilemma unless you toss rationality. I'll open a thread later today and we can play!

    Yesterday at 3:18pm · Like · 1

    Brandon shifted to the Gospel writers so the question is does the dilemma apply to them.

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

  • #2
    Trichotomy.

    Comment


    • #3
      I've seen Legend suggested, but that just makes it a quadchotomy.
      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

      Comment


      • #4
        I've never seen a good argument for why it couldn't be any combination of the three. Looking around the pantheons, there's no lack of gods who are either crazy or deceitful or both; liars are often enough lunatics; and lunatics are often enough entirely sincere, and even more often powerless.

        But C.S.L. is still a delightful writer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          I've never seen a good argument for why it couldn't be any combination of the three. Looking around the pantheons, there's no lack of gods who are either crazy or deceitful or both; liars are often enough lunatics; and lunatics are often enough entirely sincere, and even more often powerless.

          But C.S.L. is still a delightful writer.
          It's repeated in both OT and NT that God does not lie, and the NT goes even further to say that He can not lie. Then there's the fact that a lying lunatic wouldn't be able to give a consistent message. Combinations aren't very plausible in this scenario.

          Numbers 23:19
          God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

          Titus 1:2
          in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

          Hebrews 6:18
          God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            It's repeated in both OT and NT that God does not lie, and the NT goes even further to say that He can not lie. Then there's the fact that a lying lunatic wouldn't be able to give a consistent message. Combinations aren't very plausible in this scenario.

            Numbers 23:19
            God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

            Titus 1:2
            in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

            Hebrews 6:18
            God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
            The problem would not be whether God is a liar. It is nature of being fallible human that is the issue There are a number of factors that may result in the beliefs of the many varied different religious beliefs and their associated miraculous nature and claims.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The problem would not be whether God is a liar. It is nature of being fallible human that is the issue There are a number of factors that may result in the beliefs of the many varied different religious beliefs and their associated miraculous nature and claims.
              That would be the problem in lao tzu's post. Which is why I countered it. Then there's the fact that Jesus was to be both fully God, and fully man, therefore not fallible like the rest of us. Essentially, your whole post is superfluous to this discussion.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                But C.S.L. is still a delightful writer.
                Delightful fiction, but naďve simplistic theology.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  That would be the problem in lao tzu's post. Which is why I countered it. Then there's the fact that Jesus was to be both fully God, and fully man, therefore not fallible like the rest of us. Essentially, your whole post is superfluous to this discussion.
                  Your still missing the point. Your assuming these claims are true, because the fallible human testimony is spot on accurate concerning these claims. Again, it is not God, but fallible human testimony that is the potential problem.

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-20-2014, 07:22 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Your still missing the point. Your assuming...
                    I was in SUCH hope that the Revived Tweb would automatically correct the misuses of your and you're.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Your still missing the point. Your assuming these claims are true, because the fallible human testimony is spot on accurate concerning these claims. Again, it is not God, but fallible human testimony that is the potential problem.

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank
                      Oh lord.

                      Is it possible for men to die horrible deaths or even just endure terrible persecution for lies they knowingly teach?
                      Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                        Oh lord.

                        Is it possible for men to die horrible deaths or even just endure terrible persecution for lies they knowingly teach?
                        Yes. many fallible, and ah . . . gullible humans over the ages have done so!! Some through a koolaid party.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-20-2014, 08:54 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          It's repeated in both OT and NT that God does not lie, and the NT goes even further to say that He can not lie.
                          Umm, C, the whole point of being a liar is that you don't have to tell the truth.

                          That includes your answers when asked if you are lying.

                          Then there's the fact that a lying lunatic wouldn't be able to give a consistent message.
                          Why ever not?

                          Strike that. You're simply wrong. Every internally consistent work of fiction disproves it.

                          Just possibly, you're confusing lunacy with stupidity. Not so! There are plenty of highly intelligent crazies out there.

                          Combinations aren't very plausible in this scenario.

                          Numbers 23:19
                          God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
                          Which means nothing if the author is lying!

                          Titus 1:2
                          in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
                          See above.

                          Hebrews 6:18
                          God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
                          Op. cit.

                          I understand that your conception of god can't lie, but C.S. Lewis was, quite pointedly, not speaking to you, but rather to those who disagree with you. What he ended up with was an apologetic for those who already agreed with him, otherwise unconvincing.

                          As ever, Jesse

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                            Oh lord.

                            Is it possible for men to die horrible deaths or even just endure terrible persecution for lies they knowingly teach?
                            Sure!

                            During the crash of 1929, traders threw themselves out the windows to their deaths for no better reason than because their standard of living was going to take a major hit. The samurai were noted, and even praised, for their penchant for taking their own lives rather than suffer dishonor. Social prestige in the community is not something to be lightly given up, even if earned dishonorably. It stands to reason then that false prophets might be wiling to die horribly rather than lose the social privileges that came with being seen as especially close to their gods. Recantation, even if it saved their lives, could easily be seen to carry too high a price.

                            Personally, I believe most of the early martyrs were sincere, but the window remains open for insincerity. You can't really know.



                            As ever, Jesse

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Yes. many fallible, and ah . . . gullible humans over the ages have done so!!
                              Cite me some examples please.
                              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                              Comment

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