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Did God know?

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  • Did God know?

    Did God "always know" that Adam and Eve would disobey his command not to eat from the tree, or did he have to "learn" of it after the fact? If God, being omniscient, knew what the results of his creation would be before even creating them, then how can the creation itself be at fault for doing exactly what God in his knowledge created them to do, and knew they would do?

  • #2
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Did God "always know" that Adam and Eve would disobey his command not to eat from the tree, or did he have to "learn" of it after the fact? If God, being omniscient, knew what the results of his creation would be before even creating them, then how can the creation itself be at fault for doing exactly what God in his knowledge created them to do, and knew they would do?
    Why do you ask? And just knowing that someone will misbehave is not the same as causing it. For example, if you have a kid, at some point the kid will disobey and do something that you do not want to have happen. You could prevent it from happening in theory, but that would not result in the best outcome for the child.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    • #3
      To allow creation to freely choose, knowing that the freedom could or even would be misused, is not to will whatever mistakes may come about through that free choice.

      But I expect you were expecting a response along these lines.
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        Why do you ask? And just knowing that someone will misbehave is not the same as causing it. For example, if you have a kid, at some point the kid will disobey and do something that you do not want to have happen. You could prevent it from happening in theory, but that would not result in the best outcome for the child.
        The problem is that if God knew before creating them what their future choices would be then in what sense are they created free to do otherwise. Remember, the information concerning what they, the created, would do, existed and was known before they themselves even existed. For example, if God is omniscient, then the "information itself"concerning Adam and Eve's disobedience existed before Adam and Eve themselves even existed. So explain how that squares with free will. If God isn't responsible, then explain how he could know in advance, know eternally, what their free will choices would be.
        Last edited by JimL; 06-06-2014, 01:14 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          To allow creation to freely choose, knowing that the freedom could or even would be misused, is not to will whatever mistakes may come about through that free choice.

          But I expect you were expecting a response along these lines.
          The question is how can they be freely choosing anything if the information concerning what their future choices will be existed before they themselves even existed?

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          • #6
            Why do we expect that God knew the outcome in the first place? When I read the story, it sure seems like he discovered their disobedience after the fact, and there is no real indication from the text to suggest otherwise.
            Last edited by Palaeogrammatos; 06-06-2014, 02:19 AM. Reason: typo

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              The problem is that if God knew before creating them what their future choices would be then in what sense are they created free to do otherwise. Remember, the information concerning what they, the created, would do, existed and was known before they themselves even existed. For example, if God is omniscient, then the "information itself"concerning Adam and Eve's disobedience existed before Adam and Eve themselves even existed. So explain how that squares with free will. If God isn't responsible, then explain how he could know in advance, know eternally, what their free will choices would be.
              He's outside of time. If some one time traveled to a historical event (in a manner that won't change anything of course), they would know what would/has happened.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Palaeogrammatos View Post
                Why do we expect that God knew the outcome in the first place? When I read the story, it sure seems like he discovered their disobedience after the fact, and there is no real indication from the text to suggest otherwise.
                Did you ever do something wrong and your parents asked who did it even though they already knew? So that you had an opportunity to admit you broke the lamp or what ever you did.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Did you ever do something wrong and your parents asked who did it even though they already knew? So that you had an opportunity to admit you broke the lamp or what ever you did.
                  Probably. It as a long time ago, so I don't know for sure. More to the point, you did not answer the question. Where is the indication from the text that God in fact knows the outcome in the first place?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Palaeogrammatos View Post
                    Why do we expect that God knew the outcome in the first place? When I read the story, it sure seems like he discovered their disobedience after the fact, and there is no real indication from the text to suggest otherwise.
                    Because he's omniscient, of course. And I'm sure that's in the text, too.

                    /sarcasm
                    I'm not here anymore.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Palaeogrammatos View Post
                      Probably. It as a long time ago, so I don't know for sure. More to the point, you did not answer the question. Where is the indication from the text that God in fact knows the outcome in the first place?
                      Did Jesus know that Peter would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                      • #12
                        Humans aren't particles (made up of particles, granted) - observing them doesn't affect the outcome. God foreknowing an event is not the same thing as God pre-ordaining an event. I know the sun will come up in the morning - my deciding that it won't will have no effect on the sun. My foreknowledge of its rising won't affect it, either.

                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Did Jesus know that Peter would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed?
                          According to the gospels he did, but so what? This is just an attempt to avoid answering my question which I will pose once again:

                          Where is the indication in the story of the Garden of Eden from the text that God in fact knows the outcome of Adam's (Eve's?) sin?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Palaeogrammatos View Post
                            According to the gospels he did, but so what? This is just an attempt to avoid answering my question which I will pose once again:

                            Where is the indication in the story of the Garden of Eden from the text that God in fact knows the outcome of Adam's (Eve's?) sin?
                            I don't have to, all I have to show is that God can know the future before it happens.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I don't have to, all I have to show is that God can know the future before it happens.
                              And that God provided a savior before the foundation of the world.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

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