Originally posted by Spartacus
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Breaking Bad Religion
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For example, the Bible quite clearly condemns homosexuality in both the Jewish Testament and the Christian Testament (although it is more clearly condemned in the Tanakh).
Since modern society is abandoning this condemnation due to the realization that homosexuals are born that way and it is not a "lifestyle choice," - or; sin - should the dogma of Sola Scriptura be abandoned, since the book is clearly wrong in this instance?
And, what about the role of women in ministry? In many denominations of Protestant and all of Catholic churches, women assume a secondary role in the Church under the "headship" (Paul's word) of men. Is it not time for this to evolve?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYep - and if a prophet with the requisite credentials arises and declares that homosexuality isn't a sin, I'll be among the first to cheer. Until then, I'm stuck with the fact that every prophet with the requisite bonafides who ever addressed the issue has declared homosexuality to be a sin.
Scientific evidence supporting this contention does not exist. Hellenistic society of 2000 years ago considered homosexuality to be acceptable. Man is not appointed to decide what God is allowed to find acceptable.
The western churches consistently ignored Paul's pronouncements on this issue for the first 300+ years of their existence. Eastern churches for considerably longer. It can readily be demonstrated from scripture, both testaments, that God did not feel it necessary to submit to Paul's edicts on this matter. With that in mind, what you are calling evolution on this issue would be no more than restoration of the default settings.
Evolution is a well documented scientific foundation for the physical nature of what it means to be human, but there is also the spiritual evolution of the nature of what it means to be human, which is a higher standard of what is moral and ethical.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Modern science has demonstrated many forms of immoral behavior as 'born that way and not a lifestyle choice,' that would not be considered moral by any acceptable standard in the modern world.
As with Hellenist Greece and Rome, our modern world tends to justify immoral behavior by egocentric reasons.
Paul's pronouncements cut many ways justifying both good and moral behavior, and unacceptable behavior in the modern context, such as the modern consequences of his pronouncements concerning Jews.Last edited by tabibito; 06-28-2014, 08:30 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostI suspect you're in for a rude awakening when and if the time comes.
it's not as though every time I go to Mass, I feel or expect to feel something profound. Sometimes I just sit, stand, and kneel for however long it goes. It's not as though I doubt the Real Presence, but I don't "feel" it every time or nearly every time.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYep - and if a prophet with the requisite credentials arises and declares that homosexuality isn't a sin, I'll be among the first to cheer. Until then, I'm stuck with the fact that every prophet with the requisite bonafides who ever addressed the issue has declared homosexuality to be a sin.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostScientific evidence supporting this contention does not exist.
But, that's really beside the point. We value our freedom in this country. Who we have relationships with should be nobody's business but our own. Most gay folks just want the same rights and equal protection under the law you and I enjoy. To be honest with you, I don't think the State should regulate marriage at all. The notion that just because you are married, you deserve a tax credit, or that we need the State to "sanction it" runs counter to the equal protection clause in our Constitution (14th Amendment). So, if heterosexual couples get tax benefits, special treatment concerning access to healthcare, visitation rights and rights to make medical decisions, and homosexual couples do not - well; that's un-American!
Originally posted by tabibito View PostHellenistic society of 2000 years ago considered homosexuality to be acceptable. Man is not appointed to decide what God is allowed to find acceptable.
Then Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe western churches consistently ignored Paul's pronouncements on this issue for the first 300+ years of their existence. Eastern churches for considerably longer. It can readily be demonstrated from scripture, both testaments, that God did not feel it necessary to submit to Paul's edicts on this matter. With that in mind, what you are calling evolution on this issue would be no more than restoration of the default settings.
It also fits with the theory that Christianity itself evolved quite radically over the first two or three hundred years.
Societal evolution can mean returning again to a right conclusion. It doesn't always have to be a linear progression. The act of evolving is correcting for a discovered wrong. I think this is what is happening today with homosexuality. The question is, will the Church join the rest of us?
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Norm, what are your " requisite credentials?"Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostNorm, what are your " requisite credentials?"
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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