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  • #76
    Originally posted by NormATive View Post
    I'm not quite sure this answers my question. Why do you feel that the Gospel of Christ is dependent on belief in miracles? Why isn't the message of Christ enough?
    Christ is not a message. Christ is a person. To reduce him to a poster in a kindergarten classroom, "It's cool to be kind!" and to treat all that stuff about him being God as some great, convenient, necessary misunderstanding, to spit on all the superstitious tomes of the saints and mystics and to call their living, loving relationship with the living, loving God as a silly delusion and psychological crutch-- now THAT is bad religion.

    Or, perhaps it's how the authors of the Bible interpreted the Universe at the time. There are other cultures who had similar supernatural beliefs. Eventually, these fell away when science revealed the natural causes.
    If the law of love is greater than the laws of physics, we should not be surprised if, from time to time, the former should demonstrate its mastery of the latter. Is the law of love greater-- more real and substantial-- than the law of physics?

    Again, I just don't see how belief in the supernatural is all or nothing in respect to the Gospel message.

    NORM
    Are there some superstitions worked in here and there into traditional Christianity? Perhaps. We are certainly not obliged to put stock in those-- but the reality and relationality of the divine cannot lightly be cast aside because of some smug and mistaken faith in the unending explanatory power of SCIENCE
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      If the law of love is greater than the laws of physics, we should not be surprised if, from time to time, the former should demonstrate its mastery of the latter. Is the law of love greater-- more real and substantial-- than the law of physics?
      How does one go about making any sort of value judgment? How is one law ever greater than another? What on earth is a law of love?
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        How does one go about making any sort of value judgment? How is one law ever greater than another?
        What I mean is that the logic by which God operates sometimes leads him to break the logic of the laws of physics which He established.

        What on earth is a law of love?
        What on earth indeed
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          Christ is not a message. Christ is a person. To reduce him to a poster in a kindergarten classroom, "It's cool to be kind!" and to treat all that stuff about him being God as some great, convenient, necessary misunderstanding, to spit on all the superstitious tomes of the saints and mystics and to call their living, loving relationship with the living, loving God as a silly delusion and psychological crutch-- now THAT is bad religion.
          I'm surprised that you consider Jesus' message of love a "kindergarten classroom poster!" It is far more radical than it's "cool to be kind." No, the powerful message of Jesus' love is one that can tear down walls, oppressive powers, kings and tyrants.

          Again, I ask you; isn't this AGAPE LOVE more important than what the mystics and saints believed to be true?

          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          If the law of love is greater than the laws of physics, we should not be surprised if, from time to time, the former should demonstrate its mastery of the latter. Is the law of love greater-- more real and substantial-- than the law of physics?
          What if it turns out that the laws of physics ARE the laws of love?

          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          ...but the reality and relationality of the divine cannot lightly be cast aside because of some smug and mistaken faith in the unending explanatory power of SCIENCE
          What if it can?

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
            I'm surprised that you consider Jesus' message of love a "kindergarten classroom poster!" It is far more radical than it's "cool to be kind." No, the powerful message of Jesus' love is one that can tear down walls, oppressive powers, kings and tyrants.

            Again, I ask you; isn't this AGAPE LOVE more important than what the mystics and saints believed to be true?
            I think it's a lot easier to argue that the experiences and wisdom of the saints and mystics are integrally connected with divine love than it is to suggest the same of Planck's Constant, which seems to be your intention

            What if it turns out that the laws of physics ARE the laws of love?
            The golden rule and the second law of thermodynamics are not the same thing if you've developed the Grand Unifying Theory of morality and science, I'm sure there are a lot of people eager to hear it.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              What I mean is that the logic by which God operates sometimes leads him to break the logic of the laws of physics which He established.
              At best, you could establish that the physical laws are special cases as opposed to general cases. The logic of the laws of physics still wouldn't be broken, though. If you want to actually establish anything of the sort, you'll need to actually specify what you're claiming as the 'law of love'.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                I think it's a lot easier to argue that the experiences and wisdom of the saints and mystics are integrally connected with divine love than it is to suggest the same of Planck's Constant, which seems to be your intention
                My intention is to simplify Jesus' message. It has nothing to do with Planck's Constant. What hat did you pull that from?



                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                The golden rule and the second law of thermodynamics are not the same thing
                Are you certain of this?

                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                if you've developed the Grand Unifying Theory of morality and science, I'm sure there are a lot of people eager to hear it.
                You seem to equate mysticism and following Jesus. Did Jesus say that you must do this? If so; where. And, why?

                NORM
                When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                  My intention is to simplify Jesus' message. It has nothing to do with Planck's Constant. What hat did you pull that from?

                  Are you certain of this?
                  I'm quite certain that the laws which govern human relationships are not exactly the same as those that govern relationships between particles.

                  You seem to equate mysticism and following Jesus. Did Jesus say that you must do this? If so; where. And, why?

                  NORM
                  Christ can't just be reduced to a "message." Christ is a person. You encounter a person. You build a relationship with a person. Mysticism is one way in which people have experienced and built up a relationship with Jesus.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                    Christ is not a message. Christ is a person. To reduce him to a poster in a kindergarten classroom, "It's cool to be kind!" and to treat all that stuff about him being God as some great, convenient, necessary misunderstanding, to spit on all the superstitious tomes of the saints and mystics and to call their living, loving relationship with the living, loving God as a silly delusion and psychological crutch-- now THAT is bad religion.
                    Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                    I'm surprised that you consider Jesus' message of love a "kindergarten classroom poster!" It is far more radical than it's "cool to be kind." No, the powerful message of Jesus' love is one that can tear down walls, oppressive powers, kings and tyrants.

                    Again, I ask you; isn't this AGAPE LOVE more important than what the mystics and saints believed to be true?
                    I think you're both right and, in some sense, saying the same thing at totally different levels or dimensions of reality. The love and respect of other persons here on earth is mirrored by our sense of the interpersonality and relational dimension of God. This is why I do not think that apophatic belief in the Trinity will ever disappear from Christianity. Not to preserve this or that formulation of Christology from above, not that we have any comprehension of the nature of God, but because we are called to a radical sense of community here on earth, and that potential for community is the very the image of God in which we are created.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      NORM:

                      ..and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain..(1Cor. 15:14). Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Christ. If the bones of Christ were dug up I would cease to be a Christian.

                      The notion of a spiritual resurrection goes something like this:

                      a) The spiritual world does not actually exist.
                      b) Jesus was not bodily raised, but he was raised spiritually.

                      No thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                        ..and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain..(1Cor. 15:14). Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Christ. If the bones of Christ were dug up I would cease to be a Christian.
                        Sounds like a pretty weak foundation for a worldview in my estimation.

                        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                        The notion of a spiritual resurrection goes something like this:

                        a) The spiritual world does not actually exist.
                        b) Jesus was not bodily raised, but he was raised spiritually.

                        No thanks.
                        A resurrection is not necessary in any case. Why not just do what Jesus said without all the mumbo-jumbo? He was quite straight forward, from what one can see written in the Christian Testament.

                        NORM
                        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          not that we have any comprehension of the nature of God, but because we are called to a radical sense of community here on earth, and that potential for community is the very the image of God in which we are created.
                          I can actually wrap my head around that. Simple.

                          Why don't other Christians see this?

                          NORM
                          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                            Sounds like a pretty weak foundation for a worldview in my estimation.
                            That all depends on whether or not it's actually true.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                              Sounds like a pretty weak foundation for a worldview in my estimation.

                              A resurrection is not necessary in any case. Why not just do what Jesus said without all the mumbo-jumbo? He was quite straight forward, from what one can see written in the Christian Testament.
                              If Jesus is not who He said He is, why should we pay any attention to His message? We listen to Him because of who He is and, that is revealed in the resurrection.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                                I can actually wrap my head around that. Simple.

                                Why don't other Christians see this?

                                NORM
                                Very many do indeed, but we should not expect that everyone has the time or inclination to pursue a theological course of thoguht, nor is the thought or elucidation of much importance, except for those who are so inclined. Praxis and communion, ideally but rarely communal praxis, are much more important. It is most sublime when loving respect is shared with others and with God. I don't think you can truly have one without the other. That does not mean that one must believe in God in order to love and respect others, but if one is loving and respectful of others, one is already loving and respecting God. This is what Jesus teaches in Matthew's gospel:
                                “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
                                All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
                                and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

                                Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

                                Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’

                                And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’

                                Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

                                Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’

                                Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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