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  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    This is just ignorant. Because it is translated does not mean it is flawed.
    So, it's perfect? No flaws whatsoever? How, then, do you not consider yourself a literalist like the Hasidim?

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      So, it's perfect? No flaws whatsoever? How, then, do you not consider yourself a literalist like the Hasidim?
      The message is true. Is it all literal? I don't understand it all, but all I can understand is true. You need to do a study on the translation of scripture. But, you won't I suppose, unless it is done by someone who already sees things the way you do. Enough of your distortion.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        The message is true. Is it all literal? I don't understand it all, but all I can understand is true. You need to do a study on the translation of scripture. But, you won't I suppose, unless it is done by someone who already sees things the way you do. Enough of your distortion.
        I know all about how scripture is translated. That's why I don't think it is reliable - it's been stepped on too many times. You claim Divine Revelation, but you won't explain HOW you know it's Divine Revelation. "Because you say so" seems to be the dominant reason so far.

        NORM
        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

        Comment


        • Do you plan to respond to my post from two days ago, Norm, or should I go find a more productive way to spend my time?
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            Do you plan to respond to my post from two days ago, Norm, or should I go find a more productive way to spend my time?
            Yes, I began a response yesterday, but had some issues with a client that needed attention and couldn't finish in time. Of course, the "auto-save" on this forum isn't that sophisticated to keep my response for that long, so I have to start over again.

            I'll get to it eventually.

            NORM
            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
              in other words stop being a Christian is what you are saying NORM. what you are trying to get folks to do is to deny the fundementals of the Christian doctrine it won't happen. If you don't want to be a christian fine but don't tell us what our doctrine should be.
              Nope. I'm not saying that at all. Most faith expressions have evolved tremendously from their founding - my own; Judaism, has. Islam certainly has (if you ignore the radical fundamentalists). Mormons consider themselves Christians that have received a special revelation (just like Paul did). They too have evolved.

              You can do what you want. No one is telling you to do anything. However, you should realize that you are becoming more and more out of step with the rest of society. If you think that gives you brownie points with your deity, then more power to ya!

              NORM
              When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                Yes, I began a response yesterday, but had some issues with a client that needed attention and couldn't finish in time. Of course, the "auto-save" on this forum isn't that sophisticated to keep my response for that long, so I have to start over again.

                I'll get to it eventually.

                NORM
                This gives me hope that maybe you will eventually cut Philo of Alexandria some slack too! That conversation goes back more than a couple of moths at least.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  Have you looked any more into Newman since then?
                  Yes. It pretty much reaffirms the basic fundamentals, so I don't see this as an "evolutionary" document.

                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  But there's so much more to Vatican II than going from Latin to the vernacular in the Mass (which isn't actually in the council documents, iirc). The Council Fathers constructed an impressive ecclesiology, clearly rejecting the Eusebian narrative of treating the boundaries of the visible church as exactly coincident with the boundaries of the Saved and further illustrating the connections and tensions between the eschatological (perfect) and historical (not so much) Church.

                  There are, in my mind, three key terms that define how we should understand Vatican II:
                  1. aggiornamento-- "bringing-up-to-date," engaging the Church in conversation with the world around it. Paragraph 1 of Gaudium et Spes, in my opinion, can give us a very good idea of what that means in the abstract.
                  2. Ressourcement-- "returning to the sources," theological engagement with the historical sources of Christian doctrine. Not simply taking the conclusions of great theologians as settled fact, but actively trying to understand them and their theology.
                  3. Hermeneutic of Continuity-- in contrast with a hermeneutic of "rupture"- the Church after the Council is still in its essence the same as it was beforehand. There was no radical change in doctrine or break with the past; the council was the occasion for the Church coming to a better understanding of her essence and mission in the world.
                  I agree that Vatican II made the church more transparent and less "mystical." I can appreciate the outward focus of the Church that Pope John Paul II began during this time - particularly his harsh criticism of the Vietnam War. I recall a quote I heard back then that always stuck with me, and I think I found it on a quick search:

                  Humanity should question itself, once more, about the absurd and always unfair phenomenon of war, on whose stage of death and pain only remain standing the negotiating table that could and should have prevented it. - Pope John Paul II
                  I came the closest to joining the Catholic Church at this time. The Baptist Church I attended in my youth always taught that Catholics were not "real" Christians.

                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  The failure of logic is the non sequitur. You proceed from the premise that homosexual attractions are natural to the conclusion that homosexual intercourse can be morally praiseworthy (or, at least, acceptable). The conclusion does not follow from the premises, so you can affirm (as even I do) that same-sex attractions are natural without affirming that sex between two men or two women is acceptable.
                  I don't see how it makes any sense to say that homosexual sex is any more or less "sinful" than heterosexual sex. If the Christian Church taught celibacy for all, then at least they would be consistent. The Church, in my estimation, is clearly wrong on this issue.

                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  Just for the sake of clarity, the Bible condemns homosexual intercourse. Nowhere does it say that a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex is going to be sent to Hell or in any way held morally responsible for those attractions.
                  I think this is a splitting of hairs. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. In the Tanakh, the punishment for homosexuality is death by stoning (true; it uses the terminology of "a man laying with a man" - but, the Hebrew language (especially the ancient Hebrew found in the Tanakh) is full of idiomatic expressions such that there is no clear way of telling whether or not the prohibition is on the person for "being" a homosexual or "engaging in homosexual acts."

                  The point is that current medical and scientific knowledge tells us that sexual orientation is decided at birth, with the exception of ambiguous genitalia in which a person is born with both male and female genitalia. It's a coin toss as to which orientation will be revealed once they reach puberty. Homosexuals no more "choose" their sexual desires than you or I choose our heterosexual desires. We just one day have sexual desires based on our particular orientation.

                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  Women are allowed to take on leadership roles in the church and in church organizations. The head of Catholic Relief Services, for example, is a woman, and many parish administrators are women. Women are entirely allowed to exercise authority over men, and have been doing so legitimately since, oh... Biblical times, more or less. This is not, in Catholicism at least, something in need of a radical evolution (though, as ever, a practical one is in order), and in no Christian denomination that I know of is it actually a "core belief."
                  Women are NOT equal in most Abrahamic faith groups. Can a woman become Pope? Cardinal? Bishop? Even Priest? NO!!! In the Christian denomination I grew up in, Baptist, women are not allowed to be Deacons, Elders or any other role where they would have authority over men. They can teach Sunday School and organize Church socials, but they cannot occupy any role of real authority. Same with many other evangelical Christian groups I know. I know of no Christian denomination that has a woman as the head. There are some progressive Christian denominations that will now allow women to become Deacons and Elders (Presbyterian USA, for one) and even Senior Pastors. But, the national leadership is mostly male. Orthodox Judaism still has issues with women in leadership roles. Reformed Judaism, however, allows women to become Rabbis, the highest level of leadership in Judaism. In fact, my Hebrew teacher and the person who oriented me to the faith was a female Rabbi.

                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  One of the subjects that interests me most is what theologians call inculturation: the interaction of the Gospel with given historical and cultural circumstances. The questions surrounding Jesuit missionaries in China in the 17th century, for example, are immensely interesting to me (dealing with ancestor worship, Chinese philosophy, etc). The degree to which Christian theology can or must make use of Hellenistic as opposed to Oriental philosophy is fascinating, but exploring these questions shouldn't threaten the fundamental integrity of the theology which the Church has already come to accept as rational conclusions with respect to what God has revealed to humanity, particularly through the historical experience of the Jewish people and most especially through the person of Jesus Christ, through his life, death, and resurrection.

                  ... is that better?
                  I guess questioning and discovery is the first step toward evolution.

                  NORM
                  When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                    Yes. It pretty much reaffirms the basic fundamentals, so I don't see this as an "evolutionary" document.



                    I agree that Vatican II made the church more transparent and less "mystical." I can appreciate the outward focus of the Church that Pope John Paul II began during this time - particularly his harsh criticism of the Vietnam War. I recall a quote I heard back then that always stuck with me, and I think I found it on a quick search:
                    Less mystical? You've missed the point entirely!

                    I don't see how it makes any sense to say that homosexual sex is any more or less "sinful" than heterosexual sex. If the Christian Church taught celibacy for all, then at least they would be consistent. The Church, in my estimation, is clearly wrong on this issue.
                    Sex isn't just pleasurable, it's sacramental: when a man and a woman come together in marriage, knowing and accepting the possibility that their loving union may result in the creation of a new life, their sex becomes a unique kind of participation in imaging God's love.

                    I think this is a splitting of hairs. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. In the Tanakh, the punishment for homosexuality is death by stoning (true; it uses the terminology of "a man laying with a man" - but, the Hebrew language (especially the ancient Hebrew found in the Tanakh) is full of idiomatic expressions such that there is no clear way of telling whether or not the prohibition is on the person for "being" a homosexual or "engaging in homosexual acts."

                    The point is that current medical and scientific knowledge tells us that sexual orientation is decided at birth, with the exception of ambiguous genitalia in which a person is born with both male and female genitalia. It's a coin toss as to which orientation will be revealed once they reach puberty. Homosexuals no more "choose" their sexual desires than you or I choose our heterosexual desires. We just one day have sexual desires based on our particular orientation.
                    When in the Old Testament is a person held responsible-- to the point of execution-- for unexpressed thoughts and not for concrete actions? I'd say you're grasping at straws, but there aren't even any straws here to be had.

                    Women are NOT equal in most Abrahamic faith groups. Can a woman become Pope? Cardinal? Bishop? Even Priest? NO!!! In the Christian denomination I grew up in, Baptist, women are not allowed to be Deacons, Elders or any other role where they would have authority over men. They can teach Sunday School and organize Church socials, but they cannot occupy any role of real authority. Same with many other evangelical Christian groups I know. I know of no Christian denomination that has a woman as the head. There are some progressive Christian denominations that will now allow women to become Deacons and Elders (Presbyterian USA, for one) and even Senior Pastors. But, the national leadership is mostly male. Orthodox Judaism still has issues with women in leadership roles. Reformed Judaism, however, allows women to become Rabbis, the highest level of leadership in Judaism. In fact, my Hebrew teacher and the person who oriented me to the faith was a female Rabbi.
                    I'm pretty sure I already covered why that falls under clericalism.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                      You can do what you want. No one is telling you to do anything. However, you should realize that you are becoming more and more out of step with the rest of society.
                      In fact the rest of society (at least as you see it) is getting more and more out of step with the truth. They just want to hear what they want to hear.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Less mystical? You've missed the point entirely!
                        I don't think so. As a person outside of the Catholic faith who witnessed both pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II, my take is that it is less mystical. For example, pre-Vatican II, if you did not understand Latin, the entire Mass was a mystery. You just experienced it, proclaimed your memorized Threefold or Ninefold Kyrie and went home.

                        After Vatican II, the Priest would actually EXPLAIN why they used bells or cymbals as the Monstrance was making its way to the altar (symbolizes the Holy Spirit), why the censors (goes back to Jewish Temple worship), etc., etc...i.e.; less mysticism.

                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Sex isn't just pleasurable, it's sacramental: when a man and a woman come together in marriage, knowing and accepting the possibility that their loving union may result in the creation of a new life, their sex becomes a unique kind of participation in imaging God's love.
                        That's nice, but I doubt that you are shouting praises to G-d as you are climaxing with your mate. I suppose you don't believe in masturbation either. Do you still believe that the man's sperm holds the "seed" of new life - totally separate any involvement by the woman?



                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        When in the Old Testament is a person held responsible-- to the point of execution-- for unexpressed thoughts and not for concrete actions? I'd say you're grasping at straws, but there aren't even any straws here to be had.
                        I'd say coveting your neighbor's spouse, property and worshipping other gods would be prime examples, two of which are punishable by death.



                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        I'm pretty sure I already covered why that falls under clericalism.
                        And I'm pretty sure that that means Abrahamic faith expressions are bigoted toward women. Wow, women can become "clerical." Chuckle! You call that progress? Try telling that to your female CEO some day!!!

                        NORM
                        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                          I don't think so. As a person outside of the Catholic faith who witnessed both pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II, my take is that it is less mystical. For example, pre-Vatican II, if you did not understand Latin, the entire Mass was a mystery. You just experienced it, proclaimed your memorized Threefold or Ninefold Kyrie and went home.

                          After Vatican II, the Priest would actually EXPLAIN why they used bells or cymbals as the Monstrance was making its way to the altar (symbolizes the Holy Spirit), why the censors (goes back to Jewish Temple worship), etc., etc...i.e.; less mysticism.
                          You don't know the meaning of the word "mystical." Furthermore, you've ENTIRELY ignored the example I gave and gone right back to your own experiences: you're utterly unwilling to learn anything new or give weight to any perspective other than your own.

                          That's nice, but I doubt that you are shouting praises to G-d as you are climaxing with your mate. I suppose you don't believe in masturbation either. Do you still believe that the man's sperm holds the "seed" of new life - totally separate any involvement by the woman?
                          "Oh, God, yes!"

                          There. Now I feel dirty. Thanks, you contemptible old fart. The fact is, it needn't be something you meditate on during the act itself. It's something made available to us through reflection.

                          How crude and offensive do you plan to get? No, I don't think masturbation is healthy. And I'm well aware that genetic material comes from both sperm and egg and that the new life therefore begins at conception, thank you 7th grade biology.

                          I'd say coveting your neighbor's spouse, property and worshipping other gods would be prime examples, two of which are punishable by death.
                          In the OT, worship was not considered a private act. It was a public thing. You could tell if a person made a sacrifice to Baal or Ishtar or had an idol of them in their home. But when was anyone ever executed for coveting? Oh, right. Never. It's not a charge you can prove in an OT court.

                          And I'm pretty sure that that means Abrahamic faith expressions are bigoted toward women. Wow, women can become "clerical." Chuckle! You call that progress? Try telling that to your female CEO some day!!!

                          NORM
                          You condescending, closed-minded, unimaginative little twit. Clericalism refers to clerics (i.e. priests), not to "clerical work." Come back when you're ready to approach this conversation with even an iota of respect for people with legitimate differences of belief. Until then, you're on ignore. Good-bye.
                          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post

                            You condescending, closed-minded, unimaginative little twit. Clericalism refers to clerics (i.e. priests), not to "clerical work." Come back when you're ready to approach this conversation with even an iota of respect for people with legitimate differences of belief. Until then, you're on ignore. Good-bye.
                            And here I thought it was just me!
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              Norm, you suggest that all the "superstitious dogma such as belief in the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, the trinity," and so forth, is a bad thing. On the other hand I see the desire to eliminate "Jesus' gospel message all of the baggage that prevents normal people from considering the message of Christianity," Is a sign of the wickedness of modern society. The call to "treat one another with love and respect" is not the gospel. The gospel is literally the "good news" that Christ can save us from slavery to sin. Some of you like being enslaved to sin so it seems like a negative message. That is why you want to eliminate the essence of the gospel.
                              amen button

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                You don't know the meaning of the word "mystical." Furthermore, you've ENTIRELY ignored the example I gave and gone right back to your own experiences: you're utterly unwilling to learn anything new or give weight to any perspective other than your own.
                                I read your information. I did NOT ignore it. It took me two hours to read through it. Obviously, you see something there that says "evolution" that I don't see. Maybe you should highlight what you feel is so profound. Anyone else read through that document and find something of import?

                                I'm willing to learn something new when presented with something new. So far, you have failed to show me something new.
                                I


                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                "Oh, God, yes!" There. Now I feel dirty.
                                Why does sex make you feel dirty? Didn't G-d create it as something good? Oh, yeah. I forgot; you believe that one man acting naturally made everything good, dirty. Don't you see what a mind game that is? If I believed in the devil, I would be convinced he used your St. Augustine against you.

                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                How crude and offensive do you plan to get?
                                Crudity is in the mind of the beholder. You see what you want to see.

                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                No, I don't think masturbation is healthy.
                                Here again, you are out of step with a healthy view of sexuality. "Better to advise young men and women to masturbate than burn with desire" (a modern twist on St. Paul's instruction).

                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                And I'm well aware that genetic material comes from both sperm and egg and that the new life therefore begins at conception, thank you 7th grade biology.
                                See, evolving isn't so bad! You've now corrected St. Matthew on how babies are made.



                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                In the OT, worship was not considered a private act. It was a public thing. You could tell if a person made a sacrifice to Baal or Ishtar or had an idol of them in their home. But when was anyone ever executed for coveting? Oh, right. Never. It's not a charge you can prove in an OT court.
                                Again with the splitting of hairs. You would make a good Hasidim. So legalistic.



                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                You condescending, closed-minded, unimaginative little twit.
                                Why is it always the conservative Christians who feel the need to use insults to pepper their discussions. It's really not necessary. I get your point without it,

                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                Clericalism refers to clerics (i.e. priests), not to "clerical work."
                                No Edited by a Moderator? Nice try at dodging the question. Can a woman become Pope? Cardinal? Priest?

                                I know I'm going out on a limb, but I'm guessing you dont see a need for the Christian Church and community to evolve any further than the beginning of the last century.

                                NORM

                                Moderated By: Raphael

                                You don't need include profanities

                                ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                                Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                                Last edited by Raphael; 06-26-2014, 06:12 PM. Reason: edited out language
                                When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

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